WTC's overheating MN problem

[wildturkeycanoe]

Oh, great! I went for a trek to the Brindabellas yesterday, doing some trails I'd done a year or so ago. Top of the first climb the temp gauge was a notch and half below the red. Oh dear. Quickly plugged in the OBD reader, but by the time I got it connected the temp had dropped back to around 97 degrees. Onwards we went, me monitoring the needle and it seemed to be okay. After a swim at Flea Creek we hit Gentle Annie. Around 2/3 of the way up the gauge again started to shoot toward the red. I stopped on top a mound and got re-connected , which again took a minute or so as my phone had lost the wi-fi somehow. By the time it started recording data it was still 105 degrees with needle dropping. Bugger. I continued on, as it hovered around the 100+ mark, eventually reaching the top of the ridge without any massive increases.
It was around 30 degrees that afternoon, speed approx 15-20km/h and the fan was definitely working as I could hear the constant howl from it sitting on about 2500-3000rpm.
When we reached the Brindabella road and began the cruise home, i also noticed the auto was revving high and not shifting up when i backed off. Yet again, the heat has caused it to get freeze in 2nd gear. I tried to change it manually but it wouldn't go up or down. About 5 km of this and I stuck it in neutral, where it finally decided to start working again.
With the poor/random economy and now this, I was already getting evil inklings of selling it off and getting a D-Max or Hilux.
Anyway, I put it all in the back of my mind until this morning when I was cleaning the air filter and noticed coolant trails from the overflow tank going down the top of the inner guard. So, I rang Mitsubishi service and have it booked in for 15th January. In the meantime it's a ticking time bomb with the heatwave temps we have going. I'm guessing no trips up the mountains till it's sorted again.
Just so you know, the engine has barely done 20,000km, 9 months since being installed. Radiator is only 12 months old too. Will I be another unlucky 3rd or 4th engine victim? We will see in a few weeks.

[RHKTriton]

No one should have to go through this.

Manufacturers should lift their game - consumer laws should be improved with complete replacement for products over a certain value, with significant defects within the warranty period, this would provide the incentive for higher QA.

The Chinese are addressing this and will eventually be producing most brands with rebadging, as has happened with many other products.

[Joel]

Best have a chat with maxiy and compare dealership experiances. I would like to know which dealer you have delt with in canberra. On a positive note another strong pull up the clyde today from my beast, never missed a beat.

[BillMcQuade]

No one should have to go through this.

Manufacturers should lift their game - consumer laws should be improved with complete replacement for products over a certain value, with significant defects within the warranty period, this would provide the incentive for higher QA.

If this happened in the USA, the courts would have sent Mitsubishi bankrupt with class actions.

[NowForThe5th]

No one should have to go through this.

Agreed.

Manufacturers should lift their game - consumer laws should be improved with complete replacement for products over a certain value, with significant defects within the warranty period, this would provide the incentive for higher QA.

Australian Consumer Laws have been in place for a few years now. They do provide for full replacement or refund in certain cases which aren't necessarily value defined.

The Chinese are addressing this and will eventually be producing most brands with rebadging, as has happened with many other products.

Can you expand on this? Maybe give some examples of where it's already happened? I'm getting crazy images of Toyotas made in China being rebadged as Mitsubishis, which I think isn't quite what you meant.

[RHKTriton]

Happy New Year 5th and the crew.

The Chinese have attained such a scale of manufacturing that they will produce items for brand names to their particular spec. Video surveillance gear, white goods, power tools are common ones. Go to a white goods joint and check out items such as dish washers and microwaves, different brands often identical units.

Back to the automotive game; the European manufacturers have gobbled various brands becoming super entities. Where is their next opportunity to save cost and up profits? Cheap labour in China at first with full automation down the track.

Toyota are probably safe for now, they're like Telstra, regardless of the product quality or cost, a T is branded on many people's foreheads and they blindly will buy product without considering anything else.

[wildturkeycanoe]

Just a quick interesting point. I had my radiator replaced 6 months before the new motor was put in. It was a standard pressure cap. After the new engine went in, they have replaced it with the higher 127kPa cap. Why would they need to if the replacement engine didn't have the same issues as the original??
Sounds fishy and completely unnecessary unless they already suspect the new motor will have issues.

[NowForThe5th]

Happy New Year to you too. Sorry to take this off topic a bit, but I think your post deserved an answer.

The Chinese have attained such a scale of manufacturing that they will produce items for brand names to their particular spec. Video surveillance gear, white goods, power tools are common ones. Go to a white goods joint and check out items such as dish washers and microwaves, different brands often identical units.

Can the Chinese produce true quality products? Certainly. But, generally, they don't. Why? To understand this one needs to understand the Chinese psyche which is driven by short term gain rather than long term quality and reputation. This comes from two aspects (completely ignoring the political effect which is a separate subject altogether). Firstly the driving need that manufacturers have to maximise profit, at any cost. Thus specifications are gradually eroded until a product isn't at all the same as originally intended. Where the product is produced for overseas consumption and branded with an overseas brand this is often done without the customer's knowledge and prevention requires constant QA checking. Of course, sometimes the company for whom the goods are produced is complicit in the process, accepting a product that isn't quite as good but comes at a cheaper price.

Where the quality control is domestically done there is a much bigger difference - even to the point where the items aren't even recognisable as the same brand. A classic example is DJI Mavic where drones intended for overseas markets are of significantly better quality than those destined for the Chinese domestic market. I'll expand on this a bit later.

Examples? Think of Sunbeam toasters. Used to be made here and would last almost forever, occasionally needing an element change. Now made in China and when they fail are no longer worth repairing. Other examples, to greater or lesser degrees - Sidchrome tools, Netcomm.... the list goes on. As far as white goods go, badge engineering has been something that we've had for decades. Now closed, the Electrolux factory in Orange used to make a plethora of different brands for names that came from all over the world - Kelvinator, Simpson, Hoover were just a few. Manufacture has now moved overseas, but not necessarily to China.

For consistent quality the best bet is to buy a brand that controls its own manufacturing. For example, LG and Samsung (Korea), Hitachi, Makita, Sony (various, but mostly Japan).

The second aspect of the Chinese psyche that needs to be understood is that at a consumer level. Here it's all about face, which, in its most simplistic interpretation, is how someone presents themselves to everyone else. Thus it's more important to appear to be rich and/or successful than it is to actually be rich or successful. So, a consumer will buy a fake iPhone because that way anyone who sees them with one will think that they are rich enough to afford one. That it's a POS and won't last is irrelevant. This kind of thinking drives the domestic manufacturing industry to a huge degree. Fakes, of almost anything, are manufactured in vast numbers to feed the endless need of the consumer to maintain face. Unfortunately the combination of these two aspects has resulted in some massive scandals where the drive for profit and price has resulted in significantly lower quality, or sub-standard, goods being distributed. Think baby formula laced with melamine or fake vaccines. These were just a couple that gained international exposure, but it happens every day at every level and almost any item you can think of. Fake beer, fake wines, fake cigarettes, even fake noodles (quite common). In the building industry sub-standard is the norm. Buildings are built and appear to be magnificent edifices but in just a few years are falling apart. An example is the hotel that I started staying at in a city in China nearly 15 years ago. It was impressive and fabulously appointed but within 5-6 years was so bad that we had to change and move to a newer one, where things actually worked. This we've had to do more than a few times. Tragic in a sense but the lack of maintenance and poor quality has meant that they've lost a regular customer. Do they care? Nope, there are plenty more.

This is changing, but very slowly. Brand names, built on a solid reputation for quality, are few and far between. Huawei, ZTE and Haier are some that have made some progress but there is a general distrust of Chinese domestic brands.

Back to the automotive game; the European manufacturers have gobbled various brands becoming super entities. Where is their next opportunity to save cost and up profits? Cheap labour in China at first with full automation down the track.

Almost every automobile manufacturer has one or more Chinese factories. Have had for many years. From BMW and VW to GM and Ford, they all produce vehicles in China, but almost none for export. Part of the reason is the requirement that they partner with a local company who often has significant input into everyday running and part is the need to produce to a certain price point. While domestic Chinese automobile manufacturers make what can only be described as junk the market is so big and standards set so low that they can, and do, sell vast quantities. While the big name brands can get away with a slight price premium there is a limit. Thus the market gobbles up fake Range Rovers while sales of the genuine item, even made in China, are only a fraction of the number. Mitsubishi make Pajeros in China, but only for domestic sale and a few exported to Russia. Compared to the Japanese made item they are rubbish, but accepted because of the name, not necessarily the quality (although they are much better than the local brands).

So what does all that mean for us here in Oz? It's highly unlikely that we'll see a Chinese made Pajero or Triton when Mitsubishi (and others) can produce a better quality unit in Thailand or Vietnam or even Taiwan. We're unlikely to see significant numbers of lower quality products from the major brands given the spectacular failures of brands like Great Wall, Chery and the like. We're a much more mature market that demands quality and the lure of a ridiculously cheap price simply isn't enough to guarantee sales success.

We'll continue to pay more, but for a better quality product that is better supported.

Now coming back to the real topic of this thread, while I agreed with you that the 4D56 engine problems in the MN are unacceptable the reality is that MMAL continue to replace these faulty units. Part of the reason for that is that they have to under our consumer laws but the other part is that they elect to do so voluntarily, without a formal recall or any pressure from the regulators. As long as this happens there are unlikely to be any grounds for a class action. Remember too, that while it's a hot topic here on NTN the majority of MNs aren't actually subject to the problem. My estimate of percentages is in the order of 70% that are ok, but there's no official confirmation of this.

As far as blind buyers are concerned I think that the actual sales numbers of Hilux (particularly) reflect that even traditional Toyota buyers are a bit more canny than they used to be. Ranger and Triton have made huge inroads into Toyota's market share, as have VW and even Holden/Isuzu. The good thing, for the future is that it's a market segment that no manufacturer can afford to ignore and they will all be developing better products. I think that the MQ/MR is proof that Mitsubishi accept that they dropped the ball with the MN. Will the MS or MT Triton be Ranger size with reliable drivetrain and electronics? Don't know yet and it's a long way off with electric alternatives presenting viability that wasn't there just a few years ago. Here's an example and if they can do it then Mitsubishi, with years of development experience, should have some interesting surprises for us in coming years.

[RHKTriton]

Your right 5th, Asians are an enigma at times.

The Rivian looks the goods, reading about it a few days ago. Love the concept of the frunk and other storage areas.

Lost me with the high speed internet and software updates; not in Australia!

All this IOT (internet of things) will come to bite one day.

I don't mind the idea of a multipurpose tablet on the dash, but I don't want any connection of the internet to any other aspect of the vehicle. Consider when you fire up your laptop for an urgent job and 'Win10' decides to start the upgrade program - instant paper weight.

Back to Mitsi; the MS/MT series will probably be offered in EV variants if not the only option by then. Probably a joint product of the Renault Group. EVs should actually be cheaper to produce eventually as all the significant components would be assembled as largely self contained modules. Eg. Each wheel module could comprise the wheel, motor, drive electronics and suspension. These mount on the central body/chassis module and plug into the power bus and control network.

Re the mn saga, its good of Mitsi to do the voluntary, but their bean counters & legals have probably done the 'math' in conjunction with marketing.


Long live the ml......well it has to!

[wildturkeycanoe]

Well, after a rant to MMAL, I got a call from them requesting more info and put onto a "case manager" who will consult me post-diagnosis. Funny that they even have case managers. It feels like the first step of a never ending lip service loop just like with Telstra complaints. Probably not going to get much joy from them, seeing that even new MQ Triton owners are being treated like rubbish with their problematic under 40,000km issues.

[RHKTriton]

So w't'c...while you're lying on the couch...the first question will be..'how long have you had this problem?'

Hopefully you have a win soon.

[Mpatch]

Hi Forum,

New Engine maybe?
I have a MN 2014 auto GLX +,
56,000 KM - Balance shaft belt tensioner failed while on holidays, repaired under warranty. 3 days of inconvenience.

The Triton has had temperature issues for some time under load when towing and off road slow driving with low air flow. Has had the upgrade radiator cap and 50% coolant. Air bubbles in the expansion tank and temperatures to 120 degrees Limp mode when unable to get off the road.

its now with the dealer I bought it off. They are aware of the inherent issue of the (block machine finish?)
The engine has 126,500KM.
I bought new for reliability for extended trips, disappointing.

Patchy

[Maxiy]

Hi Forum,

New Engine maybe?
I have a MN 2014 auto GLX +,
56,000 KM - Balance shaft belt tensioner failed while on holidays, repaired under warranty. 3 days of inconvenience.

The Triton has had temperature issues for some time under load when towing and off road slow driving with low air flow. Has had the upgrade radiator cap and 50% coolant. Air bubbles in the expansion tank and temperatures to 120 degrees Limp mode when unable to get off the road.

its now with the dealer I bought it off. They are aware of the inherent issue of the (block machine finish?)
The engine has 126,500KM.
I bought new for reliability for extended trips, disappointing.

Patchy

I had my balancing belt got on me recently, was also replaced under warranty.

However I have had no cooling issues. Sits at around 90, with normal driving, and max I get is 95 under load, but not for extended periods.

My brother just had his engine replaced due to overheating, so I'm very cautious now.

I love my Triton, and really hope I never see the overheating issue raise its head.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[wildturkeycanoe]

I had my balancing belt got on me recently, was also replaced under warranty.

However I have had no cooling issues. Sits at around 90, with normal driving, and max I get is 95 under load, but not for extended periods.

My brother just had his engine replaced due to overheating, so I'm very cautious now.

I love my Triton, and really hope I never see the overheating issue raise its head.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I was going to ask about normal temps as I kept an eye on mine on the way home from work today. Sat between 87 and 90 doing 80km/h on the flat, climbed to 95 going up a bit of a hill. I guess that sounds pretty normal then.
Can I ask, when does your thermo fan kick in? Mine was howling all the way home from work, even when the temp was down to 87 degrees. It was a hot day, 36 or something, so I guess it had to try and cool things down anyway, but it gets so annoying to hear that horrendous roar whenever the revs climb above 2500rpm, plus you definitely feel the loss of power as it drives the silly thing. I recall during spring it even started engaging despite the outside temperature being only just above 23 degrees. But, that wouldn't cause overheating, it'd actually increase the cooling would it not?

I have been worried because I was asked by Mitsubishi if I'd modified the vehicle, so I told them of the additions. My main concern is they will try to blame the overheat on the bullbar blocking airflow or something, but it sounds like it is running just fine in terms of cooling. It only gets hot working under load. Plus, they never said anything when the first engine was replaced.

So sorry to hear Mpatch, I hope it isn't the start of the merry swap cycle for you too. I guess these summer conditions are going to weed out the faulty engines much quicker.

[Mpatch]

I thought the new replacement engines were OK, obviously not with multiple replacements some guys are having?

[wildturkeycanoe]

I thought the new replacement engines were OK, obviously not with multiple replacements some guys are having?

Tell me about it. I'm worried from some things I've read. If replacements have issues and they were manufactured in the recent past, does it mot doom all the 4D56 series?

[Joel]

I thought the new replacement engines were OK, obviously not with multiple replacements some guys are having?

Tell me about it. I'm worried from some things I've read. If replacements have issues and they were manufactured in the recent past, does it mot doom all the 4D56 series?

I don't believe so. Plenty of them around with big kms and no problems. I have done 125ish thousand and towed a ton for probably 110 thousand of those with no overheat problems. Clutch copped a flogging and got replaced around 100k kms but no heat issues.... touch wood. For those who have a good one they are a great reliable ute.

[NowForThe5th]

Sat between 87 and 90 doing 80km/h on the flat, climbed to 95 going up a bit of a hill. I guess that sounds pretty normal then.
Can I ask, when does your thermo fan kick in? Mine was howling all the way home from work, even when the temp was down to 87 degrees. It was a hot day, 36 or something,

Yep sounds the same as mine. Mine has always run like that, and it has 110k on it.

But, that wouldn't cause overheating, it'd actually increase the cooling would it not?

my understanding is that the thermo fan comes on to increase the airflow when the airflow produced from forward motion is not enough to cool the engine (on a hot day for example, or at low speeds) I could be wrong however.

I have been worried because I was asked by Mitsubishi if I'd modified the vehicle, so I told them of the additions. My main concern is they will try to blame the overheat on the bullbar blocking airflow or something.

my brother's MN is more modified than mine, and he had no trouble getting the replacement, although he had to go through the check box process first (new radiator, new fluids, new thermostat etc etc)



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[taxman74]

Hi guys
My Triton overheated on the weekend up in Bathurst, I went up the mountain and pulled into the park up the top and stop the car, Didn't notice anything and went for a walk when I came back I could hear bubbling so I checked the engine bay and noticed coolant coming out of the bottle and check the temp of the car and it was on Red. I let it cool down and drove for 200km without a issue. It didn't over heat when driving only when we stopped at Bathurst, I noticed this again yesterday when I pulled over after driving for 100km the heat display needle went up a bit. Ive checked coolent levels and it does not seem to be leaking or losing it. Maybe it was just the stinking hot day Im not sure.

Triton has done 200,000km

[wildturkeycanoe]

Hi guys
My Triton overheated on the weekend up in Bathurst, I went up the mountain and pulled into the park up the top and stop the car, Didn't notice anything and went for a walk when I came back I could hear bubbling so I checked the engine bay and noticed coolant coming out of the bottle and check the temp of the car and it was on Red. I let it cool down and drove for 200km without a issue. It didn't over heat when driving only when we stopped at Bathurst, I noticed this again yesterday when I pulled over after driving for 100km the heat display needle went up a bit. Ive checked coolent levels and it does not seem to be leaking or losing it. Maybe it was just the stinking hot day Im not sure.

Triton has done 200,000km

Exactly the symptoms I had a year or two ago and again a few weeks ago with new motor.
No problems until climbing hills. Book it in to get checked out because they can check exhaust gases in coolant.

[wildturkeycanoe]

Removed the bash plates from the bottom of my bullbar to see if that might help with the overheating, or at least eliminate it as a possible cause. Took the same trip as last time, low range hill climbing and the temp gauge peaked at 110 degrees, averaging around 105. It was only 25 degrees today, 5 less than last time. The auto gearbox got to 115 and went to limp mode [stuck in 2nd]. Even when I got back on open roads, suburban streets, going up slight inclines the gearbox temp climbed to 100+ degrees and engine around 97 degrees. I guess the gearbox issue is not going to be fixed by Mitsubishi, I will no doubt have to look into a bigger trans cooler. However, the overheat will be checked on Tuesday. Can't wait to see what they discover.

[wildturkeycanoe]

Surprise, surprise. They found nothing wrong and reckon the bullbar/winch is blocking airflow. I'd be surprised if a frw extra inches of vertical metal makes any difference at 20km/h in low range. Apparently no exhaust leakage into coolant, so it only overflowed due to temp n pressure. Now I have to figure out how to get more airflow into it, or the truck is going to blow up or end up for sale.

[Joel]

Which dealer did you get to look at it?

[taxman74]

Surprise, surprise. They found nothing wrong and reckon the bullbar/winch is blocking airflow. I'd be surprised if a frw extra inches of vertical metal makes any difference at 20km/h in low range. Apparently no exhaust leakage into coolant, so it only overflowed due to temp n pressure. Now I have to figure out how to get more airflow into it, or the truck is going to blow up or end up for sale.

How much did they charge you for the test?

[wildturkeycanoe]

Surprise, surprise. They found nothing wrong and reckon the bullbar/winch is blocking airflow. I'd be surprised if a frw extra inches of vertical metal makes any difference at 20km/h in low range. Apparently no exhaust leakage into coolant, so it only overflowed due to temp n pressure. Now I have to figure out how to get more airflow into it, or the truck is going to blow up or end up for sale.

How much did they charge you for the test?

Nothing thankfully. But unimpressed by the result.

Which dealer did you get to look at it?

Local dealer that did the engine swap 9 months ago. Reckon they couldn't replicate the overheat, which is given considering they wouldn't be able to find a low range 4x4 area within 50km of Canberra that would put the engine under load like I did. Supposedly they got it nice n hot in the workshop and measured temperatures and such. All was good with the cooling system. So why is it cooking under load?

I was told that under low range 4x4 conditions the engine will get hot [No...der!] and this is normal.
Also told that the transmission overheat issue can be fixed by adding a larger trans cooler as it has been a problem for others, but that would also add more heat to the radiator and cause more overheating issues to the engine.
Great help guys.
Looks like they've ditched me with the excuse that I'm on my own unless I put a standard bumper bar with standard Mitsi bullbar [no winch] setup. Well, don't that just kill the party? No way I'm doing that.

I have an electric thermo fan to hook up, I have hole saws to increase airflow through the bullbar, but I am not taking the winch out because it has saved my neck already.Perhaps some scoops to get more air from underneath, but beyond those measures, I can't do much more. This is killing my motivation. Can't spend any more to keep it reliable, but if I need to fork out dollars, its gotta go. I haven't even hooked up the camper this year...which may be a much worse outcome than what I've done so far. Thanks for nothing Mitsubishi.