Black Smoke Help

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Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:14 am

Hi All - hopefully the correct place to post this.

Looking for some help to diagnose an issue with excessive black smoke.

The vehicle is a 2012 MN Triton 2.5L Turbo Diesel Automatic. 265/70/R16 tyres. 60,000kms Mechanically stock - has a snorkel and I have installed a throttle controller.

The symptoms are primarily black smoke on takeoff with very long turbo lag. This is most prominent when stopped on an uphill incline. The engine bogs down completely whilst blowing a significant amount of black smoke. Pressing the throttle harder just increases the smoke. The throttle needs to be almost completely released before the turbo catches up and the vehicle will finally move away. The car idles smoothly and seems to perform ok otherwise. This results in quite a hairy situation especially at roundabouts. Full boost is around 18PSI and it reaches this easily once the vehicle is moving.

The other symptom is when the vehicle is crawling around 20kmh - it sits in 2nd gear. You press the pedal to accelerate and the vehicle stays in 2nd gear and replicates the above. Copious smoke until the throttle is released and gently reapplied.

I've tried

* New fuel and air filters.
* Self-cleaned the manifold - wasnt that dirty.
* EGR is blocked with a blank.
* I regularly clean the MAF sensor with no change.
* All turbo / intercooler pipes seem fine and the vehicle does reach full boost.
* Tried multiple injector cleaners / 2 stroke oil and premium diesel with no real change.

My thoughts
* Valves have never been adjusted - although they sound quiet enough.
* Suction Control Valve? - although the car idles well.
* Maybe the turbo vanes stick of something similar?
* Fuel SQL required?

Looking for thoughts or ideas as I'm completely out.

Cheers
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby NowForThe5th on Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:42 pm

See my avatar. ;)

As you'd be aware, the vanes on the turbo change angle in the situations you describe. It sounds like that isn't happening. There is an actuator which is controlled by vacuum from a solenoid valve which is actuated by the engine ECU. My first guess would be that one or both of these are not functioning correctly, either jammed or not receiving vacuum. There are service specifications and drawings in the online Technical Manual.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby DibbyDibbyDJ on Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:00 pm

18 psi boost on an MN? Seems a bit low. From memory more like 25psi ish, which is about 160kpa.

Remember, valves can be tight too, and dont make noise. I would be checking clearances soon.

Doing an SQL can fix some dirty injectors. Like the fuel leak test i mention below, it can dislodge some dirt from the nozzles.

I would also be testing it with throttle controller and snorkel disconnected.

And what MAF sensor does it have? I have seen non genuine ones cause smoking issues.

..... And some other thoughts



Sometimes you get a poor connection on the MAF sensor. Unplug it, and look at the pins on the sensor. They are all sitting like _ _ _ _ _ With some long nosed pliers twist them a little so they are pointing up like
/ / / / / but no where near as much. This will confirm a good connection.

How did you use injector cleaner? In the tank? Best way is to block off fuel return pipe and run engine directly from injector cleaner. It make take 20 or so minutes to use it all but it does work well.

Another thing to try , if you can get access to Bi directional scan tool is to do a fuel leak test. This ramps up the fuel pressure to maximum, to check for a leak after working on the pipes. It also can clean dirty injectors and SCV.

If none of these work i would be using a oscilloscope to check injector current draw pattern.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:51 pm

NowForThe5th wrote:See my avatar. ;)

As you'd be aware, the vanes on the turbo change angle in the situations you describe. It sounds like that isn't happening. There is an actuator which is controlled by vacuum from a solenoid valve which is actuated by the engine ECU. My first guess would be that one or both of these are not functioning correctly, either jammed or not receiving vacuum. There are service specifications and drawings in the online Technical Manual.


Thanks mate - I've tested that the actuator moves by the air-conditioning at idle. I'll have a read of the manual and see regarding the solenoid etc. I don't suppose the 'turbo cleaners' you see on the shelf are of much use?
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:52 pm

DibbyDibbyDJ wrote:18 psi boost on an MN? Seems a bit low. From memory more like 25psi ish, which is about 160kpa.

Remember, valves can be tight too, and dont make noise. I would be checking clearances soon.

Doing an SQL can fix some dirty injectors. Like the fuel leak test i mention below, it can dislodge some dirt from the nozzles.

I would also be testing it with throttle controller and snorkel disconnected.

And what MAF sensor does it have? I have seen non genuine ones cause smoking issues.

..... And some other thoughts



Sometimes you get a poor connection on the MAF sensor. Unplug it, and look at the pins on the sensor. They are all sitting like _ _ _ _ _ With some long nosed pliers twist them a little so they are pointing up like
/ / / / / but no where near as much. This will confirm a good connection.

How did you use injector cleaner? In the tank? Best way is to block off fuel return pipe and run engine directly from injector cleaner. It make take 20 or so minutes to use it all but it does work well.

Another thing to try , if you can get access to Bi directional scan tool is to do a fuel leak test. This ramps up the fuel pressure to maximum, to check for a leak after working on the pipes. It also can clean dirty injectors and SCV.

If none of these work i would be using a oscilloscope to check injector current draw pattern.


Thanks Dibby -The MAF is original and I've twisted the pints etc a few times with no discernable difference. I can read the airflow value from the Ultragauge and it shows a significant increase under throttle so assuming the MAF might be ok.

Filled the fuel filter with some LiquiMoly last time I changed it. Planning on doing the clearances soon once I do some more research on how big a job its going to be.

Cheers!
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:33 am

So the turbo actuator arm seems to move freely. Can push it down quite easily. Pulled the SCV out and it seems fine. Put it back in rotated 180 as I've heard it can help.

No change from either of these. Removed the throttle controller and a small difference but that makes sense as the throttle isnt being engaged as aggressively.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby RHKTriton on Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:11 pm

The actuator arm may move, however the vane mechanism may have play to the linkage.

Also possible, is that the vanes are full of goop.

Never got to take the lid off for valve clearance adjustment on son's MN, however can't be worse than my ML.

I'd start with valves, pull off exhaust system and check that the cat hasn't collapsed inside (found mine on the Vito I had, decided to block the output end of the cat as I went to cross an intersection, not a fun experience).

Also, any chance you've squashed the exhaust pipe at some stage?

Then may be worth pulling the turbo off for a proper check up.

Snorkel..have you checked this for obstruction?
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:00 pm

RHKTriton wrote:The actuator arm may move, however the vane mechanism may have play to the linkage.

Also possible, is that the vanes are full of goop.



Whats the best way to get at the vanes and give them a clean if need be? Is there access through the rear if the dump pipe comes off?
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby srb on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:21 pm

Lot's of turbo lag and black smoke on take off? Does it go a bit like this... nothing, nothing, nothing, then suddenly, "whooshka" off it goes and nearly puts you off the road!!
In the early days of the MN we would all joke and say it was "the calm before the storm"

So yeah sounds like a perfectly normal. Sorry to say but you either live with it or go down the expensive path of performance modifications.


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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:10 pm

srb wrote:In the early days of the MN we would all joke and say it was "the calm before the storm"


I don't remember being that kind.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:28 am

srb wrote:Lot's of turbo lag and black smoke on take off? Does it go a bit like this... nothing, nothing, nothing, then suddenly, "whooshka" off it goes and nearly puts you off the road!!
In the early days of the MN we would all joke and say it was "the calm before the storm"

So yeah sounds like a perfectly normal. Sorry to say but you either live with it or go down the expensive path of performance modifications.


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Starting to get the impression that this is the norm for this vehicle.

I'm going to have a look at chip options like the Steinbauer. Any benefits in installing a Dawes and needle valve? I understand it will smooth out the turbo operation.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby srb on Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:45 pm

Dawes valve will eliminate boost spikes when uping boost from a chip or tune. A needle valve is only necessary if controlling boost ramp over factory electronic boost controller or completely removing the boost controller for full pneumatic control. These combinations with a chip or tune completely transforms the deliverability of these MNs.

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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby Longranger1 on Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:29 pm

Cleaned the mass airflow sensor lately?
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:33 am

Longranger1 wrote:Cleaned the mass airflow sensor lately?


Yeh mate - try and clean it every few weeks.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby srb on Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:50 pm

I cleaned my mass air sensor once... that was about 7years ago now.


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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:10 am

I've run some Nulon turbo cleaner through the fuel tank the last week. There has been an overall improvement in engine power - but not really around smoke which I expected would be the case.

I removed the dump pipe off the Turbo to install a pyrometer and there is quite a lot of soot buildup. I've read that people spray Mr Muscle oven cleaner it - let it rest for an hour and then reassemble / drive with good results.

Anyone tried this? I'd just be worried about seals etc being eroded.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby toharves on Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:16 pm

To blow black smoke i would say its starving for air. Have you checked the air intake hose between the air cleaner and the turbocharger to see if it has collapsed or gone soft due to oil contamination. I have seen this on other vehicles where the hose collapses and cause an air restriction during acceleration as you have mention.
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Re: Black Smoke Help

Postby ozguy7 on Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:30 am

Quick update - I've installed a Tillix Valve (Dawes) and upped the max boost slightly. The turbo spools slightly faster and I'm seeing less smoke - happy with the outcome so far.
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