Tillix with Needle Valve

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Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby ozguy7 on Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:16 am

HI All,

I recently installed a Tillix valve but have yet to fit the supplied Needle Valve. I wanted to see if it will provide any benefits over the Tillix valve by itself. I've got the Tillix valve set so that I reach around 19.5 PSI Max Boost. Car runs great and EGT's actually decrease under power with the additional air coming in.

On the highway, boost sits around 5-7 PSI at about 420C EGT. I understand the needle valve will let me set a higher boost when cruising at highway speeds to reduce cruising EGT's?

Is it worthwhile installing the needle valve?

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby DaveXT on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:36 am

Not sure anyone knows what you are talking about.
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby RHKTriton on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:11 am

So from what I've just researched, the Tillis is similar to the Dawes valve and used to limit the peak vacuum signal to the turbo vane or wastegate actuator.

The needle basically restricts the signal and you can delay how fast the actuation takes place. So you can cause boost to rise quicker.

So yes, the needle completes the setup as far as I can see.

Neither of these additions will raise the maximum boost. The valve you have sets a cap and the needle allows the boost to come on quicker.

I think I got this right.
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby ozguy7 on Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:50 am

DaveXT wrote:Not sure anyone knows what you are talking about.


Sorry, I believe the Tillix valve is the same as a Dawes Valve with a different spring mechanism internally - or something like that.
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:10 pm

Mate, where did you even install the needle valve on the Triton? Both the Triton Kit and manual have it excluded.

In saying that, if you are consistently and smoothly getting 5-7psi on partial throttle then that's perfect so it won't use extra fuel.

Mine on the other hand, since getting a remap, my partial throttle boost sometimes jumps everywhere and its causing egt fluctuations and richness when randomly coming off boost spikes so am curious as to where you put the needle so I can bring mine back to that 5-7psi you have.

ozguy7 wrote:HI All,

I recently installed a Tillix valve but have yet to fit the supplied Needle Valve. I wanted to see if it will provide any benefits over the Tillix valve by itself. I've got the Tillix valve set so that I reach around 19.5 PSI Max Boost. Car runs great and EGT's actually decrease under power with the additional air coming in.

On the highway, boost sits around 5-7 PSI at about 420C EGT. I understand the needle valve will let me set a higher boost when cruising at highway speeds to reduce cruising EGT's?

Is it worthwhile installing the needle valve?

Cheers
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:20 pm

Needle valve is only used when going full manual boost controll. Meaning you have removed factory boost solenoid? If so then the needle valve tees off in-between Tillix and vac pump.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:49 pm

Yes I've got the Tillix also. The valve is already teed between actuator and pump, so I assume you mean the needle can just go straight after the valve?

Click to view larger picture



srb wrote:Needle valve is only used when going full manual boost controll. Meaning you have removed factory boost solenoid? If so then the needle valve tees off in-between Tillix and vac pump.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:02 pm

Yes, the needle valve can tee off anywhere on the vacuum side of the Tillis.

I can see you have completely bypassed the factory boost controller... By having no needle valve in this system you have no ability for adjustment of ramp-up rate, your turbo vanes are locked in full attack mode all of the time, probably not so great for your turbo longevity.

The needle valve will allow you to adjust a little bleed in over the vacuum to the actuator. When setting up the needle valve for the first time, a good starting point is to close the needle valve off and then slowly open the needle until you see the actuator arm rise up slightly.

You can extend the vacuum line to have the needle valve in cab for adjustments on the fly. This is great for when you want "full ramp-up" to drag someone at the lights or just back it off for cruising down the highway. When you get attuned to this you will hear the difference in the exhaust note and be able to fine tune the bleed in depending on driving conditions. I still adjust mine quite a bit while driving down the highway, depending on the engine load, egt's, afr's and sound of the exhaust.

Mine is set-up a little differently, I have modified the factory boost solenoid and by using signal from the ecu I can have automatic control that blocks my bleed-in so I have full ramp at full throttle opening. Means I can just set and forget the bleen-in adjustment for optimal everyday use and still have full-ramp if I mash the throttle pedal.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:12 pm

Thanks mate for the info, will install it over the weekend. I ended up getting it 2nd hand from someone who had it on a Patrol, but thought it wasn't needed as the Triton kit on the Tillix site has no needle valve, nor do the instructions on the usb stick that came with it required provisioning for it.

Curious to know how you've got yours all teed up if you're willing to share as i've read many have done similar with the Dawes on Patrols. To be honest, the only reason I did it was because my tuner was having an issue getting the ecu commanded 25psi to stick. Dyno was teed in just before the map sensor to get the boost reading and it would literally spike to 25psi momentarily until the ecu would hold it at back down 20psi across the rest of rev range.

Given i've recently had a replacement engine from Mitsu, I had seen vague posts throughout this forum that they downtune the ecu also which made me wonder if they had somehow ecu locked the boost.



srb wrote:Yes, the needle valve can tee off anywhere on the vacuum side of the Tillis.

I can see you have completely bypassed the factory boost controller... By having no needle valve in this system you have no ability for adjustment of ramp-up rate, your turbo vanes are locked in full attack mode all of the time, probably not so great for your turbo longevity.

The needle valve will allow you to adjust a little bleed in over the vacuum to the actuator. When setting up the needle valve for the first time, a good starting point is to close the needle valve off and then slowly open the needle until you see the actuator arm rise up slightly.

You can extend the vacuum line to have the needle valve in cab for adjustments on the fly. This is great for when you want "full ramp-up" to drag someone at the lights or just back it off for cruising down the highway. When you get attuned to this you will hear the difference in the exhaust note and be able to fine tune the bleed in depending on driving conditions. I still adjust mine quite a bit while driving down the highway, depending on the engine load, egt's, afr's and sound of the exhaust.

Mine is set-up a little differently, I have modified the factory boost solenoid and by using signal from the ecu I can have automatic control that blocks my bleed-in so I have full ramp at full throttle opening. Means I can just set and forget the bleen-in adjustment for optimal everyday use and still have full-ramp if I mash the throttle pedal.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:01 am

Yeah there's a few ways to set them up, the most basic way is just having them backing up the factory boost controller to stop boost spikes and turbo run aways, the needle valve is not required for this as you still have factory boost controller in play.

Yours is set up as "stand alone" meaning no factory boost controller to control the vacuum operation of the vnt. It's the best way to go as it takes full control away from the stupid factory controller. Boost is now controlled by fueling and will come on much stronger and smoother all the way through the rpm range and with far less lag in the lower rpm. However, best to have that needle valve in there to make it more efficient.

My setup is similar to this but slightly more refined. I don't think many have done it like mine, seems to confuse people that see it.

Click to view larger pictureClick to view larger picture

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby thebaton on Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:21 pm

Would love to see that layout explained in detail!
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:02 pm

More pictures and detailed explanations in Platinum section.
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:59 pm

NowForThe5th wrote:More pictures and detailed explanations in Platinum section.
Yes but this version never actually made it to the Platinum section, it was one of those brilliant ideas that Tony came up with when developing the original "enterprise".
I was testing it for him way back in the day, still testing it 7years later.

I'll put some more details up about it in the Platinum area if there's enough interested?

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:55 pm

OK, so after much testing, The suggestion from the question in my own post is utterly incorrect, as all it does is restricts the boost cap set by the Dawes/Tillix itself by locating the needle there.

After some experimentation, THIS is the correct way to install the Needle valve as it needs to be directly after the vacuum pump but before the dawes/actuator Tee. And since the other side of the needle needs a clean air source usually from an airbox/intake pipe nipple which we don't have, the best place to connect it was back to the actuator line of the boost solenoid as it has direct access to the mini black filter to the side of it (which justs pops off)
https://ibb.co/TMyCSmV
Click to view larger picture

Getting the needle valve spot on is paramount and requires lots of testing, but in getting it right, you reduce turbo lag because the VGT vanes don't instantly open instantly, but also allows the ramping of boost.

Credit to the below resource which allowed me to figure it out:
https://www.chaz.yellowfoot.org/Manual%20Boost%20Controller.htm



dsp26 wrote:Yes I've got the Tillix also. The valve is already teed between actuator and pump, so I assume you mean the needle can just go straight after the valve?

Click to view larger picture



srb wrote:Needle valve is only used when going full manual boost controll. Meaning you have removed factory boost solenoid? If so then the needle valve tees off in-between Tillix and vac pump.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:08 pm

dsp26 wrote:OK, so after much testing, The suggestion from the question in my own post is utterly incorrect, as all it does is restricts the boost cap set by the Dawes/Tillix itself by locating the needle there.


You have interpreted my explanation wrongly. What I explained WAS the correct way to plumb the needle valve. (Tee off between Tillix and vacuum pump.) Is what I said and it's exactly how you have ended up showing from your pic. You must have thought I ment putting the valve across the vacuum line to the boost line? Which would have been seriously dangerous, as it then would bypass the Tillix and Turbo run away would be possible.

This is why it's super important to completely understand how this system works before mucking with it. Don't just do something that someone says on a forum, unless you completely understand what it actually does and how it works.

I have drawn a line diagram of what you have actually done. As you can see, you can tee off anywhere on the vacuum side, it does not matter.
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:36 pm

dsp26 wrote:Getting the needle valve spot on is paramount and requires lots of testing


Yeah it does takes a bit of mucking around at first but you will eventually get a feel for it. With engine running, start by having the needle valve closed and watching the actuator arm while you slowly crack the valve open, as soon as you see the arm rise slightly, stop.

Or you could just install the valve in the cab next to you, so you can adjust back to full ramp on the fly. This is what I have done. And yes, use a little filter on the end like you have already done.

Mine is installed in centre console for easy feel adjustment, filter is under the plastic, and yes I have to unclog the dog fur from it every 6 months.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:14 am

Hey mate, thanks for clarifying.. I ended up drawing out similar specific to the triton parts (ie, reusing the solenoid for its filter).

I was more correcting my original question post in case anyone else stumbles on this thread as my first pic had an arrow pointing directly next to the Dawes/Tillix as the location of the needle valve.

I did dig deep though, and noticed you all had a conversation some 8yrs ago about the pre-setting of the actuator, thanks for reminding me.. i got close with test driving, but that method was heaps easier.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12233

Am going to leave it in engine bay for now, I currently see no point in making it adjustable in the cabin as I get heaps of idle lag with it tightened or not installed and the smoother ramp feels better for city driving

srb wrote:
dsp26 wrote:OK, so after much testing, The suggestion from the question in my own post is utterly incorrect, as all it does is restricts the boost cap set by the Dawes/Tillix itself by locating the needle there.


You have interpreted my explanation wrongly. What I explained WAS the correct way to plumb the needle valve. (Tee off between Tillix and vacuum pump.) Is what I said and it's exactly how you have ended up showing from your pic. You must have thought I ment putting the valve across the vacuum line to the boost line? Which would have been seriously dangerous, as it then would bypass the Tillix and Turbo run away would be possible.

This is why it's super important to completely understand how this system works before mucking with it. Don't just do something that someone says on a forum, unless you completely understand what it actually does and how it works.

I have drawn a line diagram of what you have actually done. As you can see, you can tee off anywhere on the vacuum side, it does not matter.
Click to view larger picture

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:55 pm

dsp26 wrote:Am going to leave it in engine bay for now, I currently see no point in making it adjustable in the cabin as I get heaps of idle lag with it tightened or not installed and the smoother ramp feels better


Something not right if getting more lag with the valve closed. Maybe check for a vacuum leak on your hose connections and check the needle valve isn't leaking? Also make sure you have the factory damper still installed close to the vacuum pump, can't see it in your pics?


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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:09 pm

Didn't realise i needed to relocate the dampener to vac side when bypassing the solenoid completely (wasn't covered in Tillix instructions). I left it exactly where it is from factory on the actuator line of the solenoid.

The lowend lag was before I had the needle, and just the tillix set to 25psi... am a bit dubious on the original instructions that came with it actually, as I see a vastly different setup as per the pics you posted above and some other threads I dug up here.

But you could be on the money with the hoses, slightly lose at the pump because the hose that came with it is 1mm bigger I/D, have zip tied it tight for now, see how it goes

srb wrote:Something not right if getting more lag with the valve closed. Maybe check for a vacuum leak on your hose connections and check the needle valve isn't leaking? Also make sure you have the factory damper still installed close to the vacuum pump, can't see it in your pics?


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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby srb on Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:59 pm

dsp26 wrote:Didn't realise i needed to relocate the dampener to vac side when bypassing the solenoid completely (wasn't covered in Tillix instructions). I left it exactly where it is from factory on the actuator line of the solenoid.

The lowend lag was before I had the needle, and just the tillix set to 25psi... am a bit dubious on the original instructions that came with it actually, as I see a vastly different setup as per the pics you posted above and some other threads I dug up here.

But you could be on the money with the hoses, slightly lose at the pump because the hose that came with it is 1mm bigger I/D, have zip tied it tight for now


Yes, that loose hose is most likely the culprit, make sure all those vac hoses are snug.

With no leaks and the needle valve closed or no needle valve you should have full vacuum force to the actuator, boost should come on earlier and quite violently compared to the factory set-up. This is because you have full vacuum pulling the actuator.

The dampener needs to be in there to reduce any vacuum flucuations when engine changes revs ect.

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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby ozguy7 on Mon May 31, 2021 8:57 am

I've been running for awhile now with the Tillix valve (Dawes valve). I did install the needle valve but have removed it as seems to be unecessary in my case. There is no need to slow down the turbo spool.

I do have a question around what sort of boost and EGT would be safe / optimal. Currently setup with max boost at around 18.7 PSI and the EGT (in the dump pipe) never goes above 500, even when towing. Is there room for expansion here to pump a little but more air through? Would 20 PSI be a safe bet?

How high can I run the EGT before I see issues? Currently when I tow up a high, I can give a touch more throttle and see the EGT's come down a little.

Tks
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Re: Tillix with Needle Valve

Postby dsp26 on Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:06 am

ozguy7 wrote:I've been running for awhile now with the Tillix valve (Dawes valve). I did install the needle valve but have removed it as seems to be unecessary in my case. There is no need to slow down the turbo spool.

I do have a question around what sort of boost and EGT would be safe / optimal. Currently setup with max boost at around 18.7 PSI and the EGT (in the dump pipe) never goes above 500, even when towing. Is there room for expansion here to pump a little but more air through? Would 20 PSI be a safe bet?

How high can I run the EGT before I see issues? Currently when I tow up a high, I can give a touch more throttle and see the EGT's come down a little.

Tks



20psi is stock, and without extra fueling, extra boost brings down EGT temps in diesels
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