Cooling System Service Campaign

[Jacobie]

I didn't know anything about it either, got my ute second hand and it has the high rated cap on it.

[Longranger1]

Everyone I know that has an MN (approaching 20 locally) haven't yet shown any issues and some of these cop an absolute pizzling. Build dates range from 2010-14 and the highest mileage unit approaching the 200K km's mark. I haven't seen any locally brewing up on the side of the road either. I suspect the problem may not be as widespread as the forum suggests. It would be nice to know the true statistics though. If mine proves faulty after 6 1/2 years ownership, I'll probably just deck the block, reco the head and carry on...

[Cowboy Dave]

Doesn't that beg the question though as to why new engines are being run at higher pressures with the new caps and presumably the 50/50 coolant mix and ECU programming to limp when too hot?

As in, if they've solved the problem on new motors, why bother?

And if they've solved the problem with new motors, why are we a) seeing post 2014 engines fail and b) seeing replacement motors also failing?

I'm reasonably comfortable mine is okay. It was an early edition, has lasted into it's 7th year now and survived both the service campaign test and a more recent high pressure test.

I am however pissed off that my engine has been de-rated by the reflash. By this I mean that boost levels have been reduced dramatically - as in from a peak of 25 odd and usually being able to maintain 22 psi on boost to peaks (rarely) of 19psi and not being able to maintain full boost of more than 18psi. To exclude hardware issues I've swapped turbos, boost solenoid, SCV and had all the vacuum hoses checked. I've conducted the boost level check as described by the older workshop manual that applied to my vehicle and it comes in well under where it should. Sure it still runs okay, but it's no longer what I bought and paid for.

It was also done without me being informed of that aspect of the reflash and that's just dishonest. I'm not blaming the dealer for that as I used someone I trust but MMAL clearly didn't tell the dealers what the new file would do in a complete enough way.

I am also pissed off that there hasn't been a recall. I saw a recall the other day for challengers for faulty tailgate stays but somehow engines that piss hot coolant everywhere or could leave people stranded god knows where don't warrant the safety considerations necessary to trigger a recall.

On this occasion I also don't buy the forum failure over-representation theory. There will be many failures that never turn up here. The corporate owned cars, the fleet cars, the 2nd and 3rd owner cars where the owners just copped it on the chin when told it was a head gasket failure, the owners who went to facebook instead of newtriton, the owners whose motors failed before the service campaign even started - there are so many that won't have registered here at all. And even the ones that did come here we know from experience that plenty just read, find their answer and move on without even posting.

Off topic but since I'm venting - WTF is going on with the airbag recall? Dear valued customer, your airbag may shoot shrapnel into your face and that might injure or kill you. We'll be swapping your airbag for you when we get enough stock in and we'll contact you about that. Meanwhile please continue to drive around with your own personal claymore anti-personnel mine built into your steering wheel. Yours sincerely MMAL. Honestly, WTAF?

I don't rant often, probably not often enough to be honest, but for all the positives about the car, the replacement of many engines and so on, MMAL have also behaved very, very poorly in other ways.

[BillMcQuade]

Well, if we are going to have a vent, here's mine as well;

A reliable source informs me that a number (unknown) of failures can be attributed to incorrect bleeding after coolant has been changed. How many of these were put through as warranty by dealers covering their arse is anyone's guess.

Head, head gasket and block failures are not all the same thing and have a number of possible root causes.

Personally, I'm over the whole debate, and I'm sick of certain non-MN owners constantly trying to prove some sort of point by flogging this dead horse Yeah, I get the point. I'm well aware that my engine has the potential to randomly let go at any given time. I could also get hit by a car, which is probably more of a regular occurrence than a Triton overheating.

I could also waste time on the internet looking for random bits of information on stock levels to make up some speculative BS correlation to suit some weird agenda. Perhaps a pat on the back for the Nostrodamas like intuition that made you buy an ML instead of an MN is in order.

The reality is that there is a problem that has affected some vehicles. NO ONE knows how widespread the problem is, and EVERY post on this is purely speculative (including my own). MMAL are conspicuous by their lack of concern/input on this topic.

[borngeek]

Lol.

They detune the engine, stuff up the "service campaign", and continue to blow up and you call it a "dead horse"

They're all failing and they are mitigating the problem by not allowing it to produce as much power as advertised.
I delved deep and they created a euro5 compatible Vgt too, different compression ratio to the euro4 delivered to Australia...

You can sook on all you want, I have only posted the real. You have one? the engine WILL fail.
Some sooner than others. Which is a use thing.

From the parts database, which is mits internal btw, you can buy each component of the engine. Just not long engines. And what 5th posted is euro5. Not the same.

[sushiracing]

Hi guys what are the chances of getting the recall done with 288k on the clock cars a 2011 MN temps jump to 120 on freeway then drop down in the 80s when stopped cars booked in the soonest they can do it 11/1/2017 thanks in advance

[Cowboy Dave]

I'm sure you're right about the coolant bleeding. I've been telling people to go back to have that checked for ages.

While you may be technically correct about the differences in failure modes, I reckon in the world of shorthand, uninformed customers, uninformed (on this particular campaign) mechanics and so on they could all be exactly the same thing. Head gasket failure could easily be synonymous with block machining issues in those sorts of cases.

Geek is not alone in his theory but seems the only one who wants to be Erin Brokovitch. Unless we count Nick Kotter (aka charger265?) who has been saying much the same for ages now.

[bigjobs]

In my travels, I've seen the odd Triton sitting on the side of the road and I wonder, if it wasn't a Triton, would I even notice? I can't help but wonder if it's overheated.

Anyway, my theory is that the more weight you carry, the more mods you have, then the higher your chances of suffering the problem. If indeed you have a bad block.

In my case, I first noticed the higher temps just after putting on new wheels and bigger tyres... so I thought that was the reason. This also coincided with having the campaign done, so I can't say how this may have contributed.

I know two blokes with stock cars and they haven't had a problem... they also don't do any off-road work or towing.

I reckon that there's gotta be quite a few stocko units out there with bad blocks, still getting by... chuck some bar work on, new wheels/tyres and tow a bit... see how they go then

[BillMcQuade]

You have one? the engine WILL fail.

Based on what? Your keyboard warrior internet searching? What actually qualifies you to make any such statement?(Wikipedia doesn't count FYI).

Do you know how engines are manufactured in a production line environment? I'll be tipping no.

Do you have any forensic engineering skills in metallurgy? I'll be tipping no.

Do you have any real world experience in RCA, FEA, MTBF, MTBR, etc? You'll probably have to Google the acronyms, so I'll tick the no box for you.

[BillMcQuade]

While you may be technically correct about the differences in failure modes, I reckon in the world of shorthand, uninformed customers, uninformed (on this particular campaign) mechanics and so on they could all be exactly the same thing. Head gasket failure could easily be synonymous with block machining issues in those sorts of cases.

I'm not going to disagree, as this is my exact point. The facts are obfuscated by the ill-informed, the ignorant, and the agitators. In the vacuum of information, rumour has flourished, and no-one knows the real story except MMA.

[Stoneman]

You have one? the engine WILL fail.

Based on what? Your keyboard warrior internet searching? What actually qualifies you to make any such statement?(Wikipedia doesn't count FYI).

Do you know how engines are manufactured in a production line environment? I'll be tipping no.

Do you have any forensic engineering skills in metallurgy? I'll be tipping no.

Do you have any real world experience in RCA, FEA, MTBF, MTBR, etc? You'll probably have to Google the acronyms, so I'll tick the no box for you.

That's basically what my point was.

I'm aware you would may have limited acces to stock avilabity fifth but it wouldnt be MM info
I know a lot of panel beater and mechanic in the trade they still call the local distributors for parts and availability...?

No point arguing I don't think your read my post entirely and what I'm saying about information on a so called bulletin.

There is more to it than just looking at a parts list for such bold comments with no evidence.

[Stoneman]

My tip is its a problem with cylinder sleeve and the metal it's made with

It would be good if any one has one to have the hardness tested or what ever else could be tested

From what I seen it looks like the top of the cylinder sleeve begins to melt and ulimatly have a head gasket failure.
I wish I got photos for you guys but I didn't, but I'm %100 confident dealers all over the place have them

That would explain no defined period of what ones where effected

I will no be surprised if this continues with replacement engines at all.....but that's not my expertise

[BillMcQuade]

My tip is its a problem with cylinder sleeve and the metal it's made with

It would be good if any one has one to have the hardness tested or what ever else could be tested

From what I seen it looks like the top of the cylinder sleeve begins to melt and ulimatly have a head gasket failure.
I wish I got photos for you guys but I didn't, but I'm %100 confident dealers all over the place have them

That would explain no defined period of what ones where effected

I will no be surprised if this continues with replacement engines at all.....but that's not my expertise

From my personal investigations, it's more to do with the finishing of the mating surface. When components are machined, the (automated) equipment that does all the steps has a built in factor to compensate for tool wear. There is also a known interval for tool changes. From what I have discovered (once again, unconfirmed by MMA), the wear factor was incorrect for the tooling on one of the production lines, allowing out of spec components to find their way into the next production steps. As there was no way for MMA to categorically identify which blocks came from which line (blocks are not numbered at this stage of production), it forced them to issue a VIN range "campaign" rather than have the ability to identify individual blocks. The issue was apparently compounded by a failure of normal QA procedures (probably sample size related) which would have otherwise picked up the issue.

Pictures that I have seen of failed blocks also have crevice corrosion around some of the coolant ports, under where the gasket seats, which at first glance appears to be porosity. This is not the case, as there is apparently no issue with porosity. The increased Glyco ratio installed during the campaign is obviously an attempt to stop this corrosion. The additional pressure in the system is to prevent spot boiling due to the difference in the thermal transfer of the 50/50 Glycol mix. Everything is interconnected.

All of the above is based on my own research, and in the absence of information from MMA, should also be treated as opinion. I have some experience in this field, but it wouldn't be the first time that I've been wrong

[Stoneman]

So would you say poor metals used?

I did hear talk about the need about the high concentrate needed but initially shrugged it off

What I seen with mine was all the way around the top of the sleeve was what you would first assume big chips running around 10 15mm in length of the cylinder maybe 1 -1.5 mm into the cylinder. But looked smooth on close inspection
Hence my first thought being melted but may well of been soot build up

I didn't concentrate on anything else it was a quick check-in during the day on a way to a job

[borngeek]

The evidence is not just this little website, bill. Nor little letters applied after my surname , nor bulletins applied to a program that the manufacturer sends out to its franchises to order from them.

It's the sum of all of that and other sites, that includes social media. Your clear upset state is another indicator that you're very aware it's so likely.

There is also the analog testing tools on non "service campaign" engines that give different results to the others that have had it applied and that includes changing parts, which another member has alluded to, that proves with absolute fact that the manufacturer is winding back the power the engine can produce in a effort to mitigate the risk of failure.

It's fun to bury your head in the sand and deny the reality of things when they are plain to see...

[BillMcQuade]

The evidence is not just this little website, bill. Nor little letters applied after my surname , nor bulletins applied to a program that the manufacturer sends out to its franchises to order from them.

It's the sum of all of that and other sites, that includes social media. Your clear upset state is another indicator that you're very aware it's so likely.

There is also the analog testing tools on non "service campaign" engines that give different results to the others that have had it applied and that includes changing parts, which another member has alluded to, that proves with absolute fact that the manufacturer is winding back the power the engine can produce in a effort to mitigate the risk of failure.

It's fun to bury your head in the sand and deny the reality of things when they are plain to see...

I feel that your definition of evidence is what most of us refer to as opinion.

My head is far from buried in the sand. Just because I am not swayed by anecdotal evidence, it doesn't preclude me from understanding that there is an issue. I don't deny that there is an underlying problem with some MN motors. The frequency of engine failures is the real question, and IMHO, I feel that it is not as widespread as you want people to believe. Once the actual number of failures is known, it is possible to quite accurately calculate the probability of an engine failure over a period of time. This isn't my opinion, the method uses well known statistical calculations, and is a cornerstone of product development in the engineering sector. The reliability of these calculations has been well documented by people who are a lot smarter than I am.

The one thing that letters after your name teaches you is to never let yourself get so caught up in the personal challenge of a problem, that you cherry pick evidence to support your hypothesis. I'm just as peeved as everyone else over this issue, but I'm not going to get out the sackcloth and the ashes just yet.

However, there are some facts that I will agree with you on; the "de-rating" of the engine is one of them. I also noticed this on my vehicle after it went through the campaign. This has been discussed at length. and is part of the overall issue. Is it a problem? Absolutely. Did I contact MMA to express my displeasure? Absolutely. They refuse to detail the changes to the program, but a reputable tuner has checked the differences between the pre and post campaign boost levels, and has confirmed the same change that myself and others have noticed, plus some additional limp triggers. I could have had the ECU rolled back by the dealer to rectify the problem, but this option comes with a voided warranty. Satisfactory? Not on your life! There are better ways to get your boost back that will make it worthwhile to void the warranty. This isn't a solution for everyone, and it doesn't make the larger issue go away, but there are bigger fish to fry in this pond.

What puzzles me is; as you are an ML owner, I can't understand your fanatical desire to convince all MN owners that their engines are about to expire. In fact on the very first page of this thread, you were already jumping on a gleeful anti-MN bandwagon. You must have some kind of strange agenda, to get so heavily involved in an issue that has sweet FA to do with your own vehicle. It is akin to me launching a tirade against the flimsy chain tensioner on the top of the ML cylinder head, and taking to the soapbox to decry Mitsubishi's decision to run a simplex timing chain instead of a duplex.

I have never denied that there is an issue with the 4D56, but your foil-hat conspiracy theories do nothing to further the search for answers. If anything can put me into a "clear upset state", it's the foil hat brigade.

[snakesoup]

lol

[srb]

Can someone please pass the popcorn?

[BillMcQuade]

Can someone please pass the popcorn?

I'm here all week, try the chicken

[Cowboy Dave]

I fear you've peaked too early. Good posts though.

Reminds me of the naysayers who essentially told me I was full of it when I said I'd lost boost - mainly because they couldn't pick any difference in their cars. Sigh...

[snakesoup]

I remember that cd, think I was a naysayer lol

[BillMcQuade]

I fear you've peaked too early. Good posts though.

Reminds me of the naysayers who essentially told me I was full of it when I said I'd lost boost - mainly because they couldn't pick any difference in their cars. Sigh...

What I found telling was that it is immediately felt as a loss of power when climbing hills. My Scanguage showed the bad news, which I then logged with my Delco. It says a lot that when a few of us compared notes, the boost loss was the same on each vehicle. ~3psi (sustained) reduction seemed to be the norm, with a reduced peak as well.

[coughy]

but we all dont blat racing like you dave with the seat of your pant

[RHKTriton]

Just wack the little Cummins 2.8 under the hood when the grenades gone off.

[Cowboy Dave]

but we all dont blat racing like you dave with the seat of your pant

That's actually funny because among my fellow triton owners I'm rated as one of the slower drivers. Probly because mine weighs about 3 tonne and has the auto to slow it down. But that gives me time to watch gauges and stuff. And the boost on the ultragauge was lower. confirmed its accuracy with an old school gauge and a mut3 so it was not really seat of the pants stuff.