Cooling System Service Campaign

[hvac guy]

I too have heard the tooling was used too long.

[flyreels]

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to describe for us (since you clearly know better about such things) exactly what the nature of this casting problem is and what they're doing wrong?

I'd love to know more about it since all I've really heard is that there's this porosity issue and maybe something connected with tooling wearing down and being out of spec at the end of some production runs.

Porosity is a casting issue NOT a tooling isue. I don't know what they are doing wrong and have never stated that I do, but if there are still having problems and they are, as they are are calling in New cars to be checked, then it has to be a casting problem that still haven't been fixed. If it was a tooling isue what tooling are you talking about the tooling used to machine the block after it has been cast? Then if it is the tolerances would be out ie Pistons, cranks etc which would lead to different problems.

[flyreels]

Most engine blocks are cast in a special sand, if the tooling used in to cast the molds was worn then it would lead to a thicker cast not thinner cast. So it must be the metal mix or temperature or something else that is being used in the process that is wrong some how?

[NowForThe5th]

I think that it's important to differentiate between any tooling issues and what's being referred to as the "porosity problem".

Tooling does wear out and if used beyond it's originally intended life results in sloppy tolerances - things being the wrong shape. Anyone remember the XFII that had cylinders the same shape as the badge? Like trying to drill a hole with a bit that's not sharp or has a bit of a bend in it. That's tooling.

Porosity can come from one of two things, as I understand it. Either a batch of alloy that is off-spec or a procedure in the casting process that isn't quite right - temperature at the pour too high or too low, speed of pour and so on. I'm no expert and there are probably a dozen more ways for this to happen.

So which is it? We certainly haven't heard of any other problems which would point to tooling being the issue so, while not ruling this out, I suspect that tooling may not be the real cause for concern unless it's related to the casting moulds themselves causing differences in wall thicknesses or maybe the molten metal not flowing properly into the places where it should, cooling too quickly..... that kind of thing.

What I do think is that criticism is being made where it isn't warranted. Implications that Mitsubishi knew they were selling faulty engines is just a load of crap. They would never have allowed them out of the factory if they knew. More important is the point that I've made elsewhere: that a problem of this nature is something that only becomes evident after a time in service and that the dealers and MMAL are working on fixing the problem. For me that gives me the confidence that I've made the right decision in choosing a Mitsubishi again.

[flyreels]

I agree 5th, but they know now, so they should not using the same blocks now in the new cars but they are!, ( as the new ones are in the recal even the ones that are coming have to be done before they are sold) that's what annoys me as I have one on order. I am not to concern as I know they will fix it IF the problem ever happens, but I still have safety concerns, say if it goes into limp mode if passing on a highway or around a blind corner up a hill and a car hits you from behind because it can't stop in time and yes we have plenty of those here in Tassie.
Unless you are watching the temp gauge like a hawk it could be easly missed, so Is there an engine saver device that can be fitted with an audible alarm that can be set a a safe temp so you can be sure to do something before it goes into limp mode? I know there are low water alarms for land rovers but I don't think they are temp based.

[Homer]

A scangauge will do that...if not warning, will give you the correct engine temp.

Everyone is jumping to conclusions based on terminology.

What one service manager calls porosity another will call something different and either could quite probably be an incorrect terminology for the problem.

I would also think that now they have finally gotten to the bottom of the cause, then no new cars will be manufactured and sent out with the problem.

They can't simply cease production based on a very small percentage of a recurring issue. They would have weighed up the likelihood of further problems against the probability of it causing issues while they determined why these few 'gremlin engines' started to appear down the track.

That's how it works in large production applications. To do it any differently means closing the plant, sacking all of the employees and destroying a brand over maybe 1% of vehicles on a particular production line.

No one wants or needs that shit.

You also have to factor in specific Australian conditions for the slow take up/understanding of the problem. I can't think of too many countries that tow as much as we do in either mountainous or hot conditions...or use them as hard off road...

[bstarmotorsport]

Well after a phone call from the stealer today they have ordered a "new engine" to replace my cooked one . They 3rd cylinder had a melted a hole in the top of the piston and consequently flogged the bottom end due to - wait for it "mitsi claim it is due to using a non genuine fuel filter" causing the motor to lean out ! Ha ha - funny thing is the filter that has been used is ACdelco which they recommend to use .
My mech thinks the whole thing stinks of bullshit - but all in all they are doing a complete new engine under warranty - turbo , manifolds , head , clutch complete box and dice so I must say I'm very happy !
2 weeks and I will have the girl back in the stable ....

[snowman]

leaning out diesels doesn't cause high temps (unlike petrol engines). Pretty sure anyway.........

[Tony]

Your a lucky man as holed pistons normally spell injector failure. Mitsubishi seem to be only the only brand who will consider warranty on these as have done in the past depending on the circumstances.

Where I live, all Toyota's and Nissan's with same failure got a 100% knock back and customer paid full cost.

[bstarmotorsport]

That's what there mitsi tech said in his declaration for warranty claim ! I'm no diesel fitter or mech by any standards so I guess by his professional judgement it might be so ?

[ag9111]

Group buy on these babies

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ENGINE-WATCH ... 1e93552ee2

[Cowboy Dave]

You probably got a bit lucky with your timing too mate. In the current climate of engines being replaced due to overheating it would have been pretty hard for them to be having an argument as to why yours might have done it for some unrelated issue. Not sure where you heard that they recommend AC Delco - I've only ever heard the same old mantra - use genuine parts. For the money you save (SFA compared to the cost of the car) it's just not even worth having the argument.

Just a short note on this whole 'recall' issue.

The word I am hearing is that as I have posted before this thing that is going on is officially called a service campaign. As I have said before it is not a recall. Unfortunately dealer service personnel are being a bit loose with their terminology and using the word recall when this is not in fact a recall. So these texts that people are receiving from dealers is them using the wrong wording as a kind of shorthand. If this were a recall, then as has been previously noted that would involve notifying the federal authorities, advertising the recall in national newspapers and so on. None of that has or will occur according to the current plan.

This has been separately confirmed here and on the Pajero forum linked to earlier in this thread by posters who have much better MMAL sources than I am likely to ever have.

However, because they want to cast the net pretty wide, and because some dealers have stuffed up by calling it a recall when it isn't, and because obviously rumour is rife on social media and forums like this one and the Pajero forum linked to earlier, Mitsubishi will be taking what I gather is an unprecedented step and writing to owners on their database advising of the service campaign and suggesting people take their Tritons and challengers in to be checked as part of that campaign.

Maybe precision with language and nomenclature is unimportant to most, but in cases like this the label has a pretty specific meaning so to be clumsy with applying the wrong label is a bit dangerous for the companies involved. I guess that for poor MMAL it must be a bit like herding cats trying to keep people across the whole country singing to the same hymn sheet which is why some service departments have gone a bit off message since the whole thing began.

At the end of the day for owners it probably doesn't matter much because the crux of it is that they will test things at their cost and if it has the problem they will fix it at their cost. The few examples so far have involved loan cars to affected customers so that is probably part of it too.

We still don't have all of the details, but what I have been able to glean so far is that the process involves replacing the coolant. As part of the process the mix may change from about 30% ethylene glycol to about 50% ethylene glycol. Having recently looked at a few different coolants those two concentrations were the most common mixes in aftermarket green coolants that I saw (including Nulon and Penrite for example). At the higher concentration the boiling point is increased slightly and the freezing point becomes impossible to achieve in Australia (not that we much care about freezing here...). Above 50% you start to run into other issues that aren't worth thinking about.

In addition to the coolant change they are then fitting an upgraded radiator cap. As we know from Ken's post last night the new cap can take 127kpa. The old caps took 110kpa. The change is probably pretty marginal but again as I understand it the ability to hold that extra pressure should theoretically keep the whole setup functioning for longer before the cap starts letting coolant and steam come pissing out the top. So there should be a functional improvement in the capacity there if I'm understanding the dynamics correctly.

The third layer of protection is this ECU reflash to add a new limp mode if the engine temp exceeds some sort of heat margin. I don't know what that margin is or which temperature sensor it will be reading from - there is probably more than one sensor to choose from there.

The only other step I've heard of is that after doing that stuff there are some sort of parameters around what you do if it looks like it is losing coolant. Presumably if you fill it up and next time you look it's half empty then you know there is something going pretty wrong there. Anyway they have to run the motor up to operating temperature under the new pressures. No doubt those with worn hoses and stuff may find a few of them get popped off during testing. I imagine (but don't know) that MMAL would be replacing those hoses and any other fittings that can't take the pressure under testing.

I don't know, but suspect, that under the increased pressures in the cooling system the expectation is that at running temps the problem motors will make themselves known. Those which don't will leave the dealerships with effectively an upgraded cooling system and an inbuilt safety factor with the new limp mode built into the software. If the problem later emerges then presumably you still qualify for a replacement motor.

For my part I plan to set an alarm on the ultragauge for coolant temps over say 98 degrees to remind me to check stuff out if it gets that warm. As mine seems to regularly go to the mid 90's anyway it will be difficult not to panic for a while but since I've not had a problem with it in nearly 5 years I'm not expecting to have a problem with it now.

[hvac guy]

I can see tony trying to find the limit on the ecu engine temp limp mode. Lol

[lazarus]

Its not called "recall" due to legal reasons.

If this was officially recall they would have to change engines (fix the problem as per any other recalls by any other manufacturer) and not just postpone it as they are able to do it now in "service campaign".

[Cowboy Dave]

They are replacing engines found to be faulty.

A recall can't make someone replace something that is not faulty.

[Turtlewa]

Wonder if any of these engine that boil show signs of coolant in the oil like cream under the oil cap or dip stick?

[Tony]

Not that I have seen, I think one symptom to lookout for is the coolant not returning from the recovery bottle to radiator by next morning as should.

[bodia]

Just dropped 2011 MN with 70k on the clock in for service .. whatever its called. Service guy said tooling has left lines on the top of blocks. I asked what happens if fails the test and he says "get a new engine" I aslo asked whether the test would kill the engine or if it fails will I still be able to drive and he responded with a not very confident "you should be able to drive still". He aslo mentioned they brought 30 engines in to Oz and they all went the same day. Next question is if it passes now and fails in 18 months time when I have no warranty will they replace the engine because they have admitted there is a fault within warranty periord? To be honest I think that Mitsubishi would but other manufacturers wouldnt.

[corpur]

Thought this was interesting, I have a MY15 built in May delivered in July and mine has the 127kPa cap already fitted.

Wonder if it came from the factory like that or dealer changed pre delivery. It's only had the 1500km service 2 months ago,
and nothing was mentioned about a service campaign.

[ag9111]

Dropped my silver 2009, with 145,000km, into the dealer for the recall which I was told was definitely a recall and not a service campaign. She said they need it for 2 full days
The white 2013, with 15,000km, goes in next week but to a different dealer and they need it for 5hrs
Will be asking a few questions when I pick up the silver one on Monday as they are doing the work and warranty is already done and dusted

[pickle]

Dropped my silver 2009, with 145,000km, into the dealer for the recall which I was told was definitely a recall and not a service campaign. She said they need it for 2 full days

Some of these dealers are their own worst enemy
Recall numbers start with a 01 or just 1.
Service campaigns start with an 02 or 2. Bit of a worry when the dealers aren't aware of that......and it should take around five hours. Unless they want to do it twice.
Dave

[Cowboy Dave]

Let's hope they're better on the tools than with their written comprehension and communication skills.

[AD07]

Dropped my silver 2009, with 145,000km, into the dealer for the recall which I was told was definitely a recall and not a service campaign. She said they need it for 2 full days

Some of these dealers are their own worst enemy
Recall numbers start with a 01 or just 1.
Service campaigns start with an 02 or 2. Bit of a worry when the dealers aren't aware of that......and it should take around five hours. Unless they want to do it twice.
Dave

Yeah, i rang MMA today just to get some clarification.
I was told it was not a recall, "just" a service campaign, and that it would be sorted when my next service was due.
I wonder what happens if there is drama before the service...???

[FreeFall_801]

I have some sneaky info for you all. This is what the service advisors have been given. My understanding and that of the adviser where the info came from is that it started as a service campaign but has now been changed to a recall. Which would tie in with CD saying that they are going to contact their owners database.

"Description of Problem and Prevention
 MMC has advised that Triton and Challenger equipped with 4D56 High-Power engines may
exhibit a symptom of overheat caused by the loss of coolant.
 As preventive action, the following corrective measures are implemented.
Replacing the radiator cap with a high-valve-opening-pressure type (raising the boiling point)
Replacing the coolant (To increase concentration from 30% to concentration 50%)
Reprogram of ECU (for early detection of coolant loss to prevent damage to the engine.)
Cause
 Engine overheat may occur due to excessive loss of coolant that may be caused by repetitive
coolant evaporation.
 Localised coolant evaporation could also occur after high load driving such as towing heavy
cargo.
 Also, if the sealing condition is not adequate at the upper surface of cylinder block (due to the
surface roughness) engine coolant blow-by may occur promoting overheat.
Production Fix
 Radiator cap valve opening pressure changed from 109kPa to 127kPa effective 21/02/2014
 Coolant concentration changed from 30% to 50% effective 22/11/2013
 ECU program changed to add coolant loss detection function (CEL*-on and engine output
restriction in case of detecting coolant loss) effective 09/09/2013
CEL*=“Check Engine Lamp”
 Improved smoothness of upper surface of cylinder block for engines built on and after
18/03/2014 (engine number 4D56 UCFA9504 onwards)"

[bstarmotorsport]

Dealer phoned again today to say motor is here and will be installed in the truck tomorrow and Friday and all going well I should have it back next Wednesday - still sticking to there story of non genuine fuel filter !
As Tony said I think it all happened at the right time as they would find it hard to back out of it during this overheating issue campaign !

It's a total muck around I must admit but am happy with the outcome .