Which Locker POLL ?

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Which Locker combination would you buy or already have ?

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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby jarad510 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:24 am

Driveline services I'm pretty sure that wasn't the problem because I've had it looked at by another mechanic just to be sure when I first got it. Yesterday Lee shown me a hand full of peices that resembled a pin or multiple pins? The problem is its constantly locked and when turning and moving around offroad there is constant load on the diff. I'd say unless you have a patrol with a super tuff diff keep away from them, I wouldn't recommend them for any of today ifs utes it's just to much load on the diff
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby borngeek on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:18 am

How many CV's have you killed so far?
Generally they snap well before diffs poo themselves.... I do note you are running 35's too.

Why not see how you go with the ARB locker before you become certain the diff is not able to handle a lokka...
You just chucked in supposedly stronger CV's, too. Maybe you can kill a diff with a ARB locker :idea:

There are plenty of guys on here with trouble free lokka's...

//Has Lee shown a diff specialist yet, to get their take on the failure? Can I have the broken diff?? :lol:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby NowForThe5th on Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:43 am

OK, this might be analysing the problem before having all the information but let's just have a look at the Lokka diff.

This photo shows the Lokka in the engaged position:
Click to view larger picture

This photo shows how the Lokka disengages when force is applied from the outside wheel when turning:
Click to view larger picture

You can see the small pins which are retained by springs and hold the two halves of the Lokka apart so that drive can be transferred via the notched gears. These pins and springs must be installed correctly or they will fall out. If correctly installed then they cannot fall out. It should be noted that they do not transfer any drive, they're just there to locate the two halves and maintain a tension pushing them apart. Drive is transferred via the large pins.

It is highly unlikely that the large pins would fail. Lokka are used in very high performance drag cars which have masses more torque than a Triton. However, if the small pins and springs are what failed then the only way that this can happen is through installation error. When installing these pins and springs it is much easier to put them in the wrong way than the right way. In fact, most people would think that the wrong way is the right way - it just seems logical when you're assembling the unit.

It is also imperative, when installing the Lokka, that measurements be taken at various stages of the installation. These must fall within a specified range. The gap between the two halves is one of those measurements and Lokka specify that, if outside of the specification, shims must be used to bring it back within specification. It is therefore possible that if the Lokka was installed and this measurement was not taken and appropriate shimming installed if required, then the small pins/springs could come out.

Either way, failure of the diff through these pins coming out comes back to installation error.

As far as the Lokka failing because it is always under load, that is quite wrong. A locking differential, must, by definition, always be under load. The advantage of the Lokka is that it allows the outside wheel to turn more than the inside wheel so releases the pressure that could otherwise result in wind-up when using a locking diff like the ARB type. That is, the ARB is actually more likely to fail for this reason than the Lokka. Both, however, are way overengineered and so failure will happen in the driveshafts or CVs, these being the weakest link.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:01 pm

jarad510 wrote:Driveline services I'm pretty sure that wasn't the problem because I've had it looked at by another mechanic just to be sure when I first got it. Yesterday Lee shown me a hand full of peices that resembled a pin or multiple pins? The problem is its constantly locked and when turning and moving around offroad there is constant load on the diff. I'd say unless you have a patrol with a super tuff diff keep away from them, I wouldn't recommend them for any of today ifs utes it's just to much load on the diff


Something going on with your install I would say mate. Lots of lokkas have done heaps of K's with no problems. Mine included, 40.000K now and I drive it HARD.... people on trips I have been on will tell you the same, foot to the floor everywhere, no probs for me and the install, well...... I installed mine.....and a couple of others.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Tom B on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:28 pm

That reminds me, need to take mine back for a leaking seal, also looks like theres water in the diff too :shock:
No more Triton....

Now where did I leave that Patrol ;)
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mooons on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:02 am

NowForThe5th wrote:Either way, failure of the diff through these pins coming out comes back to installation error.

As far as the Lokka failing because it is always under load, that is quite wrong. A locking differential, must, by definition, always be under load. The advantage of the Lokka is that it allows the outside wheel to turn more than the inside wheel so releases the pressure that could otherwise result in wind-up when using a locking diff like the ARB type. That is, the ARB is actually more likely to fail for this reason than the Lokka. Both, however, are way overengineered and so failure will happen in the driveshafts or CVs, these being the weakest link.

If the Lokka failure was bad enough to punch a hole in the diff housing depending on what part failed would it not be possible for these pind and springs to fall out after the failure :?: :?: :?:

And as I haven't engaged my ARB lockers since last August :oops: :oops: :oops:
there has been no stress from them for the past 6 months
Where's as if I had a Lokka there would have been some form of stress every time it's been driven
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:31 am

The Lokka turns the diff centre when being driven in 2wd but there is no load on it. The right cv shaft and wheel are disconnected by the actuator.

When in 4wd there is less load on the diff centre using a Lokka than an air locker because of the unlocking action when turning. It is difficult to get your head around it but once you have a bit to do with the Lokka the concept becomes clearer.

Generally the parts should not fail unless there is some kind of manufacturing defect, which would be difficult to find until it actually fails. Incorrect installation or failing diff parts would be the most likely cause of any failure.
In my opinion of course.
I have a fair bit to do with them from mates drag racing cars, Lokka in the rear diff with several hundred horsepower being pushed through them, to installing some into Triton front diffs. I have not witnessed a failure yet, only heard about them.

With more people increasing the output of their engines with chips and exhaust/turbo upgrades we are starting to see front diff housings warp and break, mounts etc are failing due to the increased power.
Put on a set of larger diameter tyres and the problem is multiplied. The stock front diff is just not made to handle all the stresses extra power and large tyres put it under.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby NowForThe5th on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:39 am

Mooons wrote:If the Lokka failure was bad enough to punch a hole in the diff housing depending on what part failed would it not be possible for these pind and springs to fall out after the failure :?: :?: :?:


Yes, perhaps, depending on what actually failed. Which is why I said:
NowForThe5th wrote:this might be analysing the problem before having all the information


As Salt says, once you've done an installation you understand much better how they work . The really amazing part is that the concept is pretty much simplicity in itself. It's this simplicity that makes them so strong. They come with a 3 year unconditional warranty. If the Lokka failed then I'd be asking the question why it wasn't claimed under warranty? If it was an installation problem then the installer should have warranted their work, too. So, why would one go and spend $1600 on replacement parts if it was covered under warranty? I have the feeling that there is more to this little story than we've been told, so far.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Froggy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:41 pm

Maybe you should try talking to 4wd systems nft5.
It's everyone else's fault and nothing short of a lawsuit will get money outta them!
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby NowForThe5th on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:49 pm

Froggy wrote:Maybe you should try talking to 4wd systems nft5.
It's everyone else's fault and nothing short of a lawsuit will get money outta them!


:lol: :lol: It's not mine that failed.

jarad510 wrote:Stay away from auto lockers. I had a lokka in the front smash and blow a hole right through my diff casing on the weekend. $440 for a second hand diff plus $1220 for an arb air locker like the rear plus now for fitting price. Shouldn't of tried to cut corners in the early days...


Making broad statements like this, without giving the real reasons why, can give people the wrong idea about a product that is not known for failure. I'm just questioning, as did salt36 and borngeek, the later answer:

jarad510 wrote:Yesterday Lee shown me a hand full of peices that resembled a pin or multiple pins? The problem is its constantly locked and when turning and moving around offroad there is constant load on the diff. I'd say unless you have a patrol with a super tuff diff keep away from them, I wouldn't recommend them for any of today ifs utes it's just to much load on the diff


There are a lot of holes in this post, not to mention some outright errors, and I believe that members are entitled to know what actually happened. Unless we question why, we may never know what really happened and people may then get the wrong idea about a product that may not be at fault at all.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:17 pm

Jarad ill have a chat to Lee about it as well but if your all good with it id love to get a hold of the pieces of the pin and see what i can find out about depending on the sizes of the fragments and what pin/s failed.

Do you know if it was the main shaft pin that failed? should be about 20-30mm diameter. If its this though i dont see how id like to get it MPI'd or eddy current tested to see if there are any micro fractures in the material.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:18 pm

It was the main shaft pin that failed, currently it is in 3 large pieces and lots of filings/chunks,

Jarad, Up to you if you want it tested or not? Currently its just sitting here so its up to you,

I have taken some photos that Fridgie can post to show the internals, i still cant work out this photo upload thing,
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:39 pm

:lol: :lol: amateurs :roll:

uploadfromtaptalk1360658305131.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1360658318894.jpg

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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:40 pm

uploadfromtaptalk1360658383890.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1360658397176.jpg
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mooons on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:26 pm

So what holds the big pins in place :?: :?: :?:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:37 pm

That centre pin is held in place by a smaller retaining pin which is positioned in the cage.

The retaining pin is held in place by burring the end of it's hole so it can't come out.
It can only go in one way, the other end of it's hole is blocked by the casting of the cage.

This looks to me like the retaining pin has come out allowing the centre pin to slide and get chopped off by the cage and/or the inside of the diff housing.

Jarad who installed it ? I would going to them.


coxy47 wrote:Jarad ill have a chat to Lee about it as well but if your all good with it id love to get a hold of the pieces of the pin and see what i can find out about depending on the sizes of the fragments and what pin/s failed.

Do you know if it was the main shaft pin that failed? should be about 20-30mm diameter. If its this though i dont see how id like to get it MPI'd or eddy current tested to see if there are any micro fractures in the material.


That is a generous offer Coxy, I would love to see the results...

Lee I would love to see a pic of the hole where the retaining pin resides, or should reside, it may tell a story.

If the retaining pin hole is till burred over then it is a fail of either it or the main pin.

If the retaining pin hole is not burred over........................
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:52 pm

Im with Salt. I burred mine over and then again for good measure.
Stuff that up and that pin is all over the shop. Looks like it hit the carrier and snapped many times.
That last shot looks like the rear diff? :?
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:05 pm

Agreed. I did the same with mine. No way that little sucker was going to come out. Was pretty easy to imagine a result just like the pictures above.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:28 pm

Mattstruck wrote:That last shot looks like the rear diff? :?

Definitely the front diff, underside opposite the actuator...

Pics were taken with the diff on a bench, Lee said he wanted to show me something and rang his tech to see where it was...

I thought I was gonna get blamed for something with my work ute as was picking it up after a service :oops: :lol:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Looks like Cast Iron not Cast Alloy.... and the tail shaft coming out...
Just the angle I guess. :)
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:05 pm

salt36 wrote:That is a generous offer Coxy, I would love to see the results...

Lee I would love to see a pic of the hole where the retaining pin resides, or should reside, it may tell a story.

If the retaining pin hole is till burred over then it is a fail of either it or the main pin.

If the retaining pin hole is not burred over........................


Shit thats a hell of a failure. I agree and am also keen to see the retaining pin hole in the diff centre. If i do manage to get it tested ill post anything i find here. Looking at it its undergone a hell of an impact and certainly doesnt look like its failed due to fatigue. I did expect a bit more a of a brittle fracture however as it looks like there was some plastic deformation prior to failure.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Homer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:21 pm

It looks like it has obviously slipped out to cause that...failure of that nature would be expected in that situation.
Closely check what and where they are retained for your answer - IMO.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby al coholic on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:22 am

salt36 wrote:That centre pin is held in place by a smaller retaining pin which is positioned in the cage.

The retaining pin is held in place by burring the end of it's hole so it can't come out.
It can only go in one way, the other end of it's hole is blocked by the casting of the cage.

This looks to me like the retaining pin has come out allowing the centre pin to slide and get chopped off by the cage and/or the inside of the diff housing.


This was the failure on mine :(
The centre pin came out and severely elongated the hole in the carrier. :roll:

The installers swore blind it wasn't their fault.....just "one of those things that happen......you know......if you had patrol diffs it would be a different story etc" :evil: :evil:
Pretty obvious who's fault it was though.......


Reasonably easy fix with Fraz's 2nd hand front diff and $400 to install a 2nd time over.......got out of it reasonably ok ;)
(Although was filthy about paying for installation again.......but that made sure no one but myself will ever work on any of my cars again ;) so will save me money in the long run)
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:43 pm

So easy to be forgotten, Did you install yourself second time Alco ?
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mooons on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:25 pm

So can this happen with any locker or is it just the design of the Lokka ???
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