Which Locker POLL ?

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Which Locker combination would you buy or already have ?

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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:28 pm

Any locker can fail ;-)

I believe this particular failure would be lokka only as the air lockers engage differently (happy to be corrected)
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:48 pm

Mooons wrote:So can this happen with any locker or is it just the design of the Lokka ???


No fault I don't think Mooons. Only fault was a faulty install IMHO...

Anything can/will fail if incorrectly Installed. Unless it is unbreakable :lol:
Sorry... :roll:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby har05l on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:05 am

salt36 wrote:So easy to be forgotten, Did you install yourself second time Alco ?


To answer your question salt, no he didn't :oops:

He gave the original installers a 2nd go as it was covered under a warranty. He did though get bent over for an additional installation fee :lol: but I'm sure if it fails again the workbench in his shed will be getting used to do a rebuild :lol:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:22 am

Mooons wrote:So can this happen with any locker or is it just the design of the Lokka ???


Theoretically yes but extremely unlikely as the main shaft and the cross pin aren't removed during the installation of a manual locker as it usually replaces the entire carrier. But there will still be a cross shaft so it is still possible however unlikely that it will happen.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:27 am

If your looking at "probables" then yes a Locker and a Lokka can both fail.

As we just saw a Lokka failed due to a pin not correctly installed.
A Locker could fail if a bolt was not correctly installed. ;)

Bens sounds like similar install fault so hardly an epidemic of failures.
Maybe due to "one off" installs by people not experienced in their installation.
Lockers on the other hand are installed daily buy ARB. They know how to do it really well and quickly, they know all the tricks.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:46 am

oK,

So the retaining Pin in the cage you guys are talking about, WAS STILL IN PLACE when we pulled it further apart yesterday,

Trust me cause i had to use a punch and some decent force to get it out,

Anyone that wants to come and have a look and give an opinion i am more than happy for you to do so,

I believe it is a failure of the pin, but without having much to do with these things i cannot be 100% on this.

Cheers Lee
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:24 am

:shock: :o
Bugger. How the hell can that, properly installed, break???
I'm confused...
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:12 pm

This i think is where it is the unknown Matt,

there should be no way apart from metal fatigue/failure that this should occur, that i can see anyway
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Lee-thal wrote:This i think is where it is the unknown Matt,

there should be no way apart from metal fatigue/failure that this should occur, that i can see anyway


Wow I really didn't expect that. Yeah the only way this could occur is fatigue or or outright failure through a manufacturing defect. I did notice in one of the photos the shaft has failed along the centre of the hole for the pin which would have been the first failure. That's that's the point of interest.

Can anyone tell me if the pin through the shaft runs parallel or perpendicular to the ring gear?
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:53 pm

come down and have a look at it Chris,

You can see it all then,
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:27 pm

har05l wrote:
salt36 wrote:So easy to be forgotten, Did you install yourself second time Alco ?


To answer your question salt, no he didn't :oops:

He gave the original installers a 2nd go as it was covered under a warranty. He did though get bent over for an additional installation fee :lol: but I'm sure if it fails again the workbench in his shed will be getting used to do a rebuild :lol:


Ah ok, I wasn't sure....

Not too difficult to fit really, a couple of critical points to check along the way but anyone mechanically minded can do the job.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:29 pm

Mooons wrote:So can this happen with any locker or is it just the design of the Lokka ???


This can happen with the oem diff if the retaining pin comes out.....
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Lee-thal wrote:oK,

So the retaining Pin in the cage you guys are talking about, WAS STILL IN PLACE when we pulled it further apart yesterday,

Trust me cause i had to use a punch and some decent force to get it out,

Anyone that wants to come and have a look and give an opinion i am more than happy for you to do so,

I believe it is a failure of the pin, but without having much to do with these things i cannot be 100% on this.

Cheers Lee


Wow the centre pin failed then, that is so unlikely, does anyone know where the Lokka is manufactured ?

Jarad has a good case for warranty, 4wd Systems would want to see it, no doubt....

The stress on the centre pin is mostly across the pin, from the two half round parts of the Lokka, Fridgies photos above show it. I couldn't see the pin failing from that. A half circle pushing through the pin to engage the other half circle.
This happens at both ends of the pin at the same time. There is very little 'pulling' force on the pin.
There would be some 'twisting' force on the pin though and I guess this could be where it broke away from the retaining pin.

Lee was there a piece of the centre pin with the retaining pin hole in it somewhere ? This bit could tell a story. Given it was driven so far I doubt it would be recognisable.

Coxy could have it investigated to find if it was fatigue or crap steel to begin with....
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:52 pm

coxy47 wrote:
Lee-thal wrote:This i think is where it is the unknown Matt,

there should be no way apart from metal fatigue/failure that this should occur, that i can see anyway


Wow I really didn't expect that. Yeah the only way this could occur is fatigue or or outright failure through a manufacturing defect. I did notice in one of the photos the shaft has failed along the centre of the hole for the pin which would have been the first failure. That's that's the point of interest.

Can anyone tell me if the pin through the shaft runs parallel or perpendicular to the ring gear?


Here you go mate, from the manual..... From memory the lock pin is close the end of the centre pin....

Front diff lock pin.JPG
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:23 pm

uploadfromtaptalk1360830134667.jpg


If you look closely at the piece on the right it may be where the pin went through?? Looked too perfect when I was there to be a groove worn into it.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:02 pm

fridgie wrote:If you look closely at the piece on the right it may be where the pin went through?? Looked too perfect when I was there to be a groove worn into it.


Yeh mate it is. Looking at the left side of it in the photo appears to be where it failed. I hate to say it but it looks more and more like fatigue related. It also appears to be darker on the failure point from the photo which is another indication of fatigue.

Saying that though it doesn't mean it wasn't due to poor material used for the pin. As this will make fatigue occur more quickly.

For this to fail there in this manner I can't see it happening without an underlying fault. Option 1 being the pin having room to move in the centre from elongation of the holes or a undersized pin which is less likely. Option 2 being a faulty material.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:21 pm

As said, this makes no sense. The force applied to the large pin is a twisting force long ways along the length of the pin. Even a rubbish steel pin should handle it easily.
Come to think of it it really can't be that because the pin has been snapped off across its length. Like cutting a bit off a sausage.
Something has happened to allow the pin to move up and out of its correct position where it's hit the carrier and snapped.
Could something have happened, something had broke, to allow the pin to have play, move out and snap?
From my memory of the install it's shimmed into the carrier? So impossible?
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Joe:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:50 am

There was a piece of the main pin still locked in by the pin through the cage, the last piece only came out once we had removed the pin,

i think there are 4 large pieces overall but i think 3 out of the 4 were broken once the first piece had failed,
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Homer on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:05 am

Doesn't make sense to me in these photos...how does the pin "twist/shear" in half with no load in that direction and while contained inside a housing :? Even a brass pin wouldn't fail in that way in that application...

I'd expect wear/axial shear lines in that situation?

Either that or I'm looking at the pin fitment and forces completely wrong :oops: the pins act very similar to a key on a shaft/coupling hub no?
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:18 am

I'll do up a loading drawing of it this afternoon to show how it would be been loaded.

Lee I won't get to swing past this afternoon due to work but ill try and get there Monday arvo.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Lee-thal on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:50 am

Ok Coxy, No worries
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby coxy47 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:27 pm

Ok so ive now got the parts of the pin that failed off Lee and f*ck its a decent failure. So everyone is aware it is the pinion shaft that failed i.e. the approx 20mm diameter pin that runs through the lokka.

Based on a close look and ill update photos when i get i chance, it appears to have failed initially due to fatigue at the pinion shaft retaining pin hole. which allowed the pin to move freely in the diff and ultimately cause the other failures. One thing that is interesting is that there appears to be a ductile fracture at the opposite end of the pin which I didn't expect.

I'll see what else i can find out about it from a professional as this definitly isnt my specialty but i doubt it will be much without being able to compare it to another pin that we know is in reasonable condition.
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby salt36 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:42 pm

Fatigue :o

I can't remember how much movement, if any, there was between the pinion shaft and the retaining pin.

Bit of a concern as that will be the weakest point of the shaft.... hopefully it is a one-off failure....

Good on you Coxy 8-)
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby Mattstruck on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:47 pm

But how could something which doesnt move fatigue??? :?: :?:
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Re: Which Locker POLL ?

Postby fridgie on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:00 pm

Mattstruck wrote:But how could something which doesnt move fatigue??? :?: :?:

We all ask YOU that after one of your 'workouts' ;) :lol:
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