Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:
Stoneman wrote:I don't think any of you can explain :lol:

In stead of being idiots can you link the specific post?


Okay so people who couldn't be arsed repeating themselves for people who couldn't be bothered reading the answer are idiots now? Reckon I'll try cryptic instead if that's the quality of feedback available.


No worries

The quality of feed back died when any one that believed it is a numpty....

Could of simply stated the post rather "enough hints have been given"

Were you just lurking in the background waiting for your moment? :lol:
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:09 pm

borngeek wrote:What do you need explained?

It's simple the ECU believes the turbo is overboosting and causes a limp mode.

WHY?

Because it's a VGT turbo and it measures the amount of air it consumes over a period of time under full load/100% throttle position and has a built in safety measure to stop the turbo from self destruction.

It's really quite simple.

Those that fit bigger exhausts encounter the problem more reguarly, and in a shorter period of time, because it can expel gas quicker and the limit is reached sooner.

Various sensors, as I already explained, are involved in the ECU making that decision.

It would be stupid of me to tell you what voltages, which sensors, how we unlock it, until it is fully tested.
ie. We risk engines of people that have a clue what they are doing, have extra monitoring equipment in place, as well as know what the risk is.

//I suggest you go find a nice long hill and go hold your engine flat out (do not take your foot off the throttle hold it down)
You will discover yours does it too. They all do it. :roll: Once you discover the time it takes, you can then use a throttle blip method to avoid the error from occurring. This may be annoying to some but is an effective workaround until the long term solution is finished.

Real cryptic. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Wasn't so hard!

I wasn't asking what sensors or voltages just a explanation to why you didn't believe it was the snorkel

Thanks Borngeek
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:12 pm

Vacuum operated but yeah still pressure I guess.

Don't forget the timing requirement, so not just hit the limiter but hold it up there hard for x seconds. I should really go back and remind myself how many seconds. :lol:

The Dawes can be configured a number of different ways and not all of them interfere so drastically with the VGT.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:Vacuum operated but yeah still pressure I guess.

Don't forget the timing requirement, so not just hit the limiter but hold it up there hard for x seconds. I should really go back and remind myself how many seconds. :lol:

The Dawes can be configured a number of different ways and not all of them interfere so drastically with the VGT.


I would be interested to know how many seconds so I can know if I'm testing it properly.

Roughly?

Is there a certain rpm it happens?
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:26 pm

So I went back to the first page - actually some proper descriptions back at the start when Tony first posted and then answered initial questions. I'd forgotten about those. If i recall correctly he later talked about rpm and stuff but anyway the time period nominated was only 8 seconds. I'd actually thought it was a bit longer.

Then there was this post too:

Mitstech2936 wrote:The dealer ecu update that they are trying to fix that with is for p1299 (under boosting @ high altitude) not overboosting, I'm pretty sure the max parameters that there meant to be at is 237mpa and I have seen them up round the 260mpa mark,
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:28 am

Under boosting, over boosting, exhaust,no exhaust,snorkel, no snorkel

I'm confused :?:

I'm keen to test mine with all the carry on and some being convinced mine will do it even though it seems hit and miss with the issue

But I've said before I carry big loads and some steep hills without being able to change gear and I've never had it.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:24 pm

you need to pin it to the wall for 40 sec or more and it will do it
but i have a m8 with a pc challenger had from new and he tows a 2.5 tonne van up the cunningham range and not once done it to him
where as mine does it twice going up there
untill the last time heheheh i modified some things and it didnt do it so im testing still and i will be giving it a good test in 2 weeks to see once and for all if it is fixed
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:04 am

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with the limp mode issue after fitting a 2.75" Beaudesert exhaust system.

I've been told by a tuner in Brisbane, Brett at Ultimate Diesel Tuning that this is easily solved electronically with a remap they simply modify a few factory sensors related to the overboost issue. They quoted $200 to do this and they have some maps ready for me to upload to my ECU.

I've got to swing past and get them uploaded and then load her up a long hill to confirm it has fixed the limp mode/overboost issue. Was hoping to swing past this week but you won't believe my turbo went bang yesterday!! Second VGT in 85,000km.

First turbo failed at the 30,000km (replaced under warranty). Yesterday second turbo went with exactly 85,000km so lasted 55,000km. Yet to have warranty acknowledged but will be the 3rd VGT unit.

As the vehicle will be out of warranty soon I'm looking at ditching the VGT unit all together and going for a larger more traditional ball bearing unit - will be more reliable!
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby srb on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:51 am

Tomola wrote:Was hoping to swing past this week but you won't believe my turbo went bang yesterday!! Second VGT in 85,000km.

First turbo failed at the 30,000km (replaced under warranty). Yesterday second turbo went with exactly 85,000km so lasted 55,000km. Yet to have warranty acknowledged but will be the 3rd VGT unit.

As the vehicle will be out of warranty soon I'm looking at ditching the VGT unit all together and going for a larger more traditional ball bearing unit - will be more reliable!


Wow I'm interested to know how you blew up two turbos? Apart form the odd oil weeping these turbos seem fairly bullet proof. What boost are you running? What EGT temps do you see? Are you letting it cool down before shutting down after hard runs? How have you got your LPG injection setup?
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:26 pm

srb wrote:Wow I'm interested to know how you blew up two turbos? Apart form the odd oil weeping these turbos seem fairly bullet proof. What boost are you running? What EGT temps do you see? Are you letting it cool down before shutting down after hard runs? How have you got your LPG injection setup?


I'm also interested to know this? It's been running around 21-22psi since the motor had 5,000km (first tuned). When the first unit failed MRT said it had nothing to do with the tune - just unlucky. EGT's stay below 600C.

The most recent tune was with the new exhaust and cross country intercooler and the tuner was happy to up the boost to around 23-24psi as the oil, water and EG temps are all fine.

The LPG injection injects after the turbo and before the intercooler - there's not massive gains with the gas maybe 5kW of power and 30Nm of torque with the gas on. But certainly more responsive and boost comes on earlier with the gas on and the fuel consumption improves by an entire 2.0L / 100km.

I always let the motor idle for at least 3 mins before switching her off. I've done a bit of research into the VGT's and I know they are more sensitive to soot contamination and bearing temperatures. I don't fully understand what is killing the turbos so quickly on my car and of course Mitsubishi never tell you anything - I'm very interested what component is actually failing - I'll see if I can get any info out of the dealer when they look over the vehicle tomorrow morning.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:54 pm

i just got this from a nother forum

there is a auto trans ecu reflash just released for challenger and triton
for the control of auto temp

i dont think this is a temp problem but im going to talk to them tomorow about this and see if i can get more info
as i have just come back from a 4 day bender of drinking and partying lol more on that later need to sleep

but after all of this limp mode BS im over this crap heap it is going to the tuners very soon to fix it as it is very VERY dangerous limped twice on me going up the coast
so ask the dealers for the trans ecu update
or like tomola said get the tuners to fix for a couple hundy good money spent i recon
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:40 pm

It won't have anything to do with the auto trans fluid temperature. Because I also fitted a huge trans cooler which is 3 times the size of the factory unit and it dropped the trans temps significantly, before the cooler upgrade the trans would hold 2nd gear when the temps were high, towing a boat up hills or even in soft sand.

Since the cooler upgrade the trans has NEVER held 2nd gear again. They are a bloody good transmission - just get hot very easily the trans cooler has been the best upgrade.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Cowboy Dave on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:34 pm

Nothing to do with the turbo obviously but the ECU upgrade for the auto is way overdue. Looking forward to more details coughy.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby snowman on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:54 pm

cant see the auto ECU tune update to remove heat being anything more than removing power somehow.

if they could have adjusted for lower temps with better lockup it would also have helped economy and they would have done it way earlier.

am i too old and cynical now?
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby ag9111 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:09 pm

Its called experienced Mark ;)
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby hvac guy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:02 pm

If they optimize the lock up better fuel economy would be heaps better. But back on topic ask them to check the oil pressure at the turbo. Had an issue years ago on another car blowing turbo long story short the was a restriction in the oil feed line.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:53 pm

yes that ecu update is relevant as the auto slipps like a mofo and that makes the turbo spool up longer as the trans isnt doing its job properly
it isnt a temp issue but im hoping that the ecu update has fixed other issues
they might be just calling it a temp issue update to hide a law suit for bad programming and dangerous situations that many have been placed in
i know i have had this issue now since i have owned this car and ive tried every thing to fix and stop it so this is the next step in the limp mode saga with mitsubishi crap
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:27 am

hvac guy wrote:If they optimize the lock up better fuel economy would be heaps better. But back on topic ask them to check the oil pressure at the turbo. Had an issue years ago on another car blowing turbo long story short the was a restriction in the oil feed line.


We'll just got off the phone to the service manager and I suggested that they need to do a proper diagnosis as it's the second turbo failure. The manager cut me off straight away and said "It's not an issue with your car we have have had heaps of Tritons and Challengers that are blowing VGT's it's a design fault with these types of turbos".

Of course they did the usual "your vehicle is heavily modified, we need to submit a report and it will be up to Mitsubishi head office to decide if they will warranty the job or not".

The shit fight begins..
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:34 am

yer lol i have had mine replaced at 35000 as the internal fins were hitting the housing they said i never got to see it but they replaced it under warranty
alot of shaft movement was what they said that made the internals hit the walls
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby BillMcQuade on Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:35 am

Tomola wrote: The manager cut me off straight away and said "It's not an issue with your car we have have heaps Tritons and Challengers that are blowing VGT's it's a design fault with these types of turbos".


Really? A design fault with VGTs? "Heaps" of them blowing up? :roll:

I have a mate who owns a very reputable and well known turbo building/modification shop, who sees some real tuning potential in VGTs.

Something else of interest is that you can also set them up to act as a switchable, ECU controlled exhaust brake. Might be a nice thing for those that tow.......

Ask him to detail this "design fault", in writing (you may have to educate him on how to differentiate opinion from fact).

Also enquire as to what "heaps" is (apart from the volume of BS that he is trying to make you swallow).
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:05 pm

BillMcQuade wrote:
Tomola wrote: The manager cut me off straight away and said "It's not an issue with your car we have have heaps Tritons and Challengers that are blowing VGT's it's a design fault with these types of turbos".


Really? A design fault with VGTs? "Heaps" of them blowing up? :roll:

Ask him to detail this "design fault", in writing (you may have to educate him on how to differentiate opinion from fact).
Also enquire as to what "heaps" is (apart from the volume of BS that he is trying to make you swallow).


I'm a shrewd negotiator so waiting for their $140 an hour diagnosis to take place on Thursday.. and then I can flush out the BS. I will drill them hard if they can confidently state a component has a design fault and then deny warranty. I will do my best to get the "design fault" in writing. Also "heaps" is inline with what another dealer told me when the first turbo went at 30,000km, they've "replaced a number of the VGT's on these vehicles".
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:06 pm

coughy wrote:yer lol i have had mine replaced at 35000 as the internal fins were hitting the housing they said i never got to see it but they replaced it under warranty
alot of shaft movement was what they said that made the internals hit the walls


I could also hear the fins grinding into the housing for about 10 mins before it failed. But had done 500km along the coast that day and was only 10km from home...
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Tomola on Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:55 pm

quick update, the dealer has denied warranty - the head office attack begins.. reloading ammunition as we speak! :evil:
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby BillMcQuade on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Tomola wrote:quick update, the dealer has denied warranty - the head office attack begins.. reloading ammunition as we speak! :evil:


Good luck, I hope you are successful.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:36 pm

Tomola wrote:quick update, the dealer has denied warranty - the head office attack begins.. reloading ammunition as we speak! :evil:


where abouts are you m8 in brissy or melbourne??
if in brizzy would love to catch up for a chin wag and a looky at your rig
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