Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:10 pm

Thanks for all the feedback guys and I apologise if this has caused tension within, I didn't mean to start that by any stretch.

Where I'm frustrated with all of this is that, one, the DP CHIP/3" Exhaust combo was recommended by one of Australia's Diesel Experts, Berrima Diesel, two, it was installed and tuned by Berrima Diesel, three, it's taken 12 months to evolve so why this long (done this drive plenty of times over the past 12 months), and four, would removing my EGR blank plate possibly eliminate the overboost?

I have always and will continue to lean upon reputable firms such as Berrima Diesel for expert advice and how to protect my vehicle the best I can however when something like this occurs you can't help but think 'What Now - Is it time to ditch the Mitsos???
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Naff on Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:33 pm

As SRB and Bill alluded to, it's likely wear or something going out of tolerance.

Mine does weird shit on hot days.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:16 pm

Sharkey, don't worry about the apparent conflict, not your fault at all. Why some people choose to overboost (and/or overheat) is even more of a mystery than you've got with your car.

Sure Berrima Diesel seem to have a good name etc but no one place could ever be across every model of every diesel engine in the country and know every failure mode there is.

They also wouldn't be the first performance product vendor to say they've never come across the problem.

See for example some posts from monkeyz on a similar issue. His tuner fixed the problem with a Dawes valve set-up as described near the start of this thread.

MMAL haven't come up with a fix for it as yet. Berrima can, as Srb said earlier, reduce fuel and boost (more fuel means more air etc) but you will likely notice less power thereafter.

The Dawes fix described in this thread will be familiar to them though (or should be) as it is similar to a fix used on a model of patrol some years ago.

If you contact Tony@spvindustries.com he might be able to help you with a prototype of his new fix. Be aware though that he currently has a bit of a production backlog and with Christmas pending you would probably be looking at January some time before he could do much for you.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby BillMcQuade on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:32 am

Stoneman wrote:I would like to see someone be able to replicate it
Not just by driving up a hil, but actually find what's doing it

If for example it's the actuator, surely a valve could be made to replicate it and make it do it for testing?
Why can't it be replicated on a DYNO?
Or find the culprit sensor trick it and see what happens (monitoring everything else of course)

Vacuum,boost,fuel pressure can be logged and throttle position.
There has to be a way of isolating the issue....but from what I read it can't be yet or hasn't been shared

I understand how conclusions are made with circumstances outlined but it has to be able to be isolated, or why can't it be?

Out of curiously what sort of performance difference is seen with different size exhaust and what details are available to support it?


Everything is built to a tolerance, and has a wear limit. Very rarely, some of these things come together and show up as a niggling, unidentifiable fault. I could give you some eye-popping examples :lol: All the individual components can be tested and prove to be within limits, but together, they form the perfect storm. This is most evident when building to a price, with a "parts basket" to work with, and limited development time. Given the complex nature of the modern Diesel control systems, it's not surprising that hardware changes can have different effects on different cars, occasionally finding a limit.

Some vehicles experience the overboost condition with the OEM exhaust. To complicate matters, the "overboost" scenario encompasses a range of a few different conditions, both intake and exhaust. I'm sure that if someone had the time and money, they could sit their problem vehicle on a dyno, with a suite of sensors and parts, and isolate this issue for that particular vehicle. The commercial reality is that no-one has the thousands of dollars to do this, and in our litigious society, mechanics are unwilling to take on problem vehicles that every man and his dog have had a go at fixing. MMA doesn't have a magic box that will find this problem, and the system creates a model where dealerships will never invest the time to chase such a warranty issue, as they won't get paid for it. These are high-volume, low margin vehicles.

Some people are chasing power from their vehicles, and are willing to push limits to achieve this. SRB, for example, has found that he can trigger the fault from excess intake flow. So this is a known scenario. The "hill climb" example can be replicated on the dyno, and creates known conditions; intake air flow and boost spikes are repeatable. My vehicle (with 3" exhaust) never had a limp, but it was close to the alarm limits from boost ramping, as spotted on the dyno (with the standard ECU map). These are not caused by faults, they are the result of modifications. The limping can be removed by ECU mods or hardware intervention.

So, to make some attempt to answer the question, ignoring the rare stock vehicles that overboost with OEM exhaust, this leaves us with the current scenario, where most of the "overboost" faults are because of modifications that we make to the vehicle. Modifications are rarely given the due consideration that they require. It's very much like algebra; what you do to one side, you must do to the other. The injection system is able to compensate for a wide range of conditions, which masks unsuitable modifications. The question is; why fit a 3" exhaust in the first place? Especially when nothing else is done to the vehicle. Dyno testing has proved that the OEM exhaust is not the limiting factor in performance :? (documented by MRT and others).

Other than a bit of insurance against EGT, the 3" exhaust is a fashion accessory (and I'm a slave to fashion :lol: ).
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:58 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:Sharkey, don't worry about the apparent conflict, not your fault at all. Why some people choose to overboost (and/or overheat) is even more of a mystery than you've got with your car.

Sure Berrima Diesel seem to have a good name etc but no one place could ever be across every model of every diesel engine in the country and know every failure mode there is.

They also wouldn't be the first performance product vendor to say they've never come across the problem.

See for example some posts from monkeyz on a similar issue. His tuner fixed the problem with a Dawes valve set-up as described near the start of this thread.

MMAL haven't come up with a fix for it as yet. Berrima can, as Srb said earlier, reduce fuel and boost (more fuel means more air etc) but you will likely notice less power thereafter.

The Dawes fix described in this thread will be familiar to them though (or should be) as it is similar to a fix used on a model of patrol some years ago.

If you contact Tony@spvindustries.com he might be able to help you with a prototype of his new fix. Be aware though that he currently has a bit of a production backlog and with Christmas pending you would probably be looking at January some time before he could do much for you.


Thanks Cowboy Dave,
I think I will take your advice in the interim and get in touch with Tony from SPV to see what he thinks, and if he suggest fitting the Dawes valve than I will most likely go down this path as it isn't really a huge outlay. However if I were to roll back to the original OEM exhaust than the starting price would be in the vicinity of $3k, according to Mitsubishi.

Given I already have the catch can in place, do you think if I were to remove the EGR Blanking plate (with hole and fitted over 12 months ago) that this could bring about a positive outcome? I was contemplating removing it anyway and perhaps swapping it with the EGR module which SPV sell.

Oh damn cars!

Cheers
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:18 pm

Coughy

Why did you ultimately end up getting a retune by ultimate diesel?

You spent a lot of time exploring other options including a chip at a cost of money and time I bet?, plus boost controls and as far as I can recall nothing worked?
So just wondering what made you give up and get ultimate diesel tuning involved to fix the over boosting problem

Or did you fix it before approaching them?

Just thinking this may help a lot of people chasing the same problem.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:23 pm

Tomola wrote:It won't have anything to do with the auto trans fluid temperature. Because I also fitted a huge trans cooler which is 3 times the size of the factory unit and it dropped the trans temps significantly, before the cooler upgrade the trans would hold 2nd gear when the temps were high, towing a boat up hills or even in soft sand.

Since the cooler upgrade the trans has NEVER held 2nd gear again. They are a bloody good transmission - just get hot very easily the trans cooler has been the best upgrade.


Hi Tomola,
What Transmission Cooler did you end up going with because mine too has locked up in 2nd gear after coming up the Clyde Mountain down near Batemans Bay. This is another upgrade which I would like to do in the New Year.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Stoneman on Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:56 pm

Sharkey wrote:
Tomola wrote:It won't have anything to do with the auto trans fluid temperature. Because I also fitted a huge trans cooler which is 3 times the size of the factory unit and it dropped the trans temps significantly, before the cooler upgrade the trans would hold 2nd gear when the temps were high, towing a boat up hills or even in soft sand.

Since the cooler upgrade the trans has NEVER held 2nd gear again. They are a bloody good transmission - just get hot very easily the trans cooler has been the best upgrade.


Hi Tomola,
What Transmission Cooler did you end up going with because mine too has locked up in 2nd gear after coming up the Clyde Mountain down near Batemans Bay. This is another upgrade which I would like to do in the New Year.


A lot of info on the Pajero forum under the challenger section on the transmission over heating...torque converter lock up issue from what they wright.

I'm pretty sure thier the same box?
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Cowboy Dave on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:42 pm

Sharkey you may find Tony can kill both birds with one stone on the egr and overboost issues.

I doubt that removing the plate will influence the overboost issues though.

If you did end up going back to a stock exhaust the cheap way is to join the various Facebook triton groups where you often see stock exhausts being sold cheap.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:52 am

Thanks CD, this would be an ideal solution if Tony could kill both birds with the one stone.

As for going back to the stock exhaust, highly unlikely! It has been running really good these last 12 months so for this to trigger only now I think it could be something which is relatively easy to fix, famous last words!
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:24 pm

For those of you who are still following this discussion, I took the truck to Berrima Diesel today to investigate the once off Overboost and it was highly advised that I remove the Blanking Plate as this was most likely attributing to the problem. I was told by BERRIMA to only use the Oil Catch Can and NOT the Blanking plates.

Apparently there is a brand new write up on their Facebook page in relation to EGR. Very good read indeed.

Anyway only time will tell with the removal of the Blanking plate as to whether this has totally resolved the overboost.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Redneck198033 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:31 pm

Sharkey wrote:For those of you who are still following this discussion, I took the truck to Berrima Diesel today to investigate the once off Overboost and it was highly advised that I remove the Blanking Plate as this was most likely attributing to the problem. I was told by BERRIMA to only use the Oil Catch Can and NOT the Blanking plates.

Apparently there is a brand new write up on their Facebook page in relation to EGR. Very good read indeed.

Anyway only time will tell with the removal of the Blanking plate as to whether this has totally resolved the over boost.


I too took my Triton to Berrima, they did not charge me as they had no real answer to the over boost.

I do believe that the issues is related to the 3" exhaust, its too big for most 2.5 " would help with the over boost.

The over boost is caused by the improved air flow from the exhaust & the ECU will not catch the over boost in time to not cause the limp mode.

I have 2 cats one after the turbo like the original exhaust & one under the drivers seat. This has however not completely fixed the over boost, but it is not as prevalent once towing.

The cat under the drivers seat was due to the roo systems exhaust they has made by Genie for roo systems, I had a chat to Genie rep & he said they do not build them with the cat that far away from the turbo due to back pressure needed to not cause over boost.

So in a nut shell, I'm not totally convinced Berrima Diesel know what to do. The over boost is caused by the extra flow from the exhaust. In my opinion.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:25 pm

yes but if you take it to a tuner that knows what they are doing the OVER BOOST IS GONE FOR GOOD

im running a 3" turbo back and mine would over boost stock tune,stock exzorst,3" exzorst loaded or unloaded so it is in the software and if you all know my special car it limped nilly every week

running 20psi to 32psi it limps

now runs at a solid 26psi allday and never looks like a limp in site

i have since had a tune done and NO MORE LIMPS AT ALL loaded or unloaded full noise up a hill towing for a good 4mins where i would limp 3 times to get up there so YES IM happy

speak to a tuner
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby NowForThe5th on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:52 pm

So how did they solve it, coughy?

Layman's logic tells me that if you have overboost you can only stop it from happening by reducing the boost or increasing the point at which the ECU chucks a hissy fit and goes into limp. Other than reducing the exhaust size, which we know you haven't done.

You're saying that you're running "26psi all day" so they must have moved the point at which a limp is triggered. To me that sounds potentially dangerous - I hope you're running a calibrated Dawes valve to prevent the turbo going into orbit when the ECU does get wrong footed.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:12 pm

no it is fine now 5th they have fixed it and i said should i have a dawes valve fitted back in to the system
there responce was "Dont need to but you can if you would like to"
as it does spike to 32 now when first hit it and i rasied this with them and they said that is normal and fine as the dyno was seing this and the temps and boost and fuel all good so no concern
they werent so im not
anything goes wrong which it hassent i will be back ther in a flash dont worry

i asked what they did and said ajusted some sensor setting and made the solinoid pick up the responce alot faster so it is like the arm on the turbo vanes is in the attack mod straight of the bat like the ramp up valve did the software is mapped to correct the boost with the 3d model and the phisical side is the solinoid doing its job

but yer i dont know what they did in there as you know it is black majic and they wont tell you every thing but
IT IS NO LIMP MODE FOR ME

as for the movement of the limp trigger i dont know m8 i havent seen it since
he was saying some sensor values so mmm i dont know but no limps so happy now
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Sharkey on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:53 pm

Only time will tell with my truck, but if mine does it again than I will be fitting the Dawes Valve for sure however let's first see how she goes with the removal of the EGR Blank Plate.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby BillMcQuade on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:01 am

NowForThe5th wrote:So how did they solve it, coughy?

Layman's logic tells me that if you have overboost you can only stop it from happening by reducing the boost or increasing the point at which the ECU chucks a hissy fit and goes into limp. Other than reducing the exhaust size, which we know you haven't done.

You're saying that you're running "26psi all day" so they must have moved the point at which a limp is triggered. To me that sounds potentially dangerous - I hope you're running a calibrated Dawes valve to prevent the turbo going into orbit when the ECU does get wrong footed.


Essentially they change the delay between the ECU receiving an input, and the response to the output. We're talking about periods of less than a second. In reality, when using electronic-over-vacuum control, there is always a (relatively speaking) fair lag in the actuation process, as evidenced by MNs that limp with the factory exhaust.

On my vehicle, the upper limit for boost was simply returned to pre-campaign levels (~22.5psi), so the actual alarm limit remains the same as OEM. It just gets an extra 500ms or so to stabilise. If it detects the alarm condition it can still go into limp to protect the engine/turbo. If anything, the boost control is now more stable than it was pre-tune, as the actuator is not constantly hunting, due to the steeper boost ramp.

There is also a change to the upper limit of what the air flow meter deems normal. The extra allowable air flow is matched with extra fuel to retain a good A/F ratio. There is still an alarm limit, but it is proportionally higher. Most of the issues on the MN are related to excess air flow, as the OEM fuelling table is unable to compensate for flows above "X" setting. It's just like the the good old days when your mate would throw a 2.5" exhaust on his Gemini, and then wonder why the thing ran like a dog. Once you throw a Weber on it and run a decent cam, it would go fine. Electronic controls can mask faults/compensate for a lot of mods, but they have limits. As I have said before; engine mods are like solving algebra, what you do to one side, you must do to the other.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:47 am

Thanks Bill.

So, if I replaced the throttle body with a carby it should go much better, right? :P
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby BillMcQuade on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:37 am

NowForThe5th wrote:Thanks Bill.

So, if I replaced the throttle body with a carby it should go much better, right? :P


Triple Webers :lol:
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby ag9111 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:45 am

BillMcQuade wrote:Gemini, and then wonder why the thing ran like a dog.


Enough said :evil:
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:11 pm

twin su are the go lets see you tune them suckers :lol: :lol: :lol:
they took some beer drinking and head scratching to sort out lol
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby coughy on Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:12 pm

BillMcQuade wrote:
NowForThe5th wrote:So how did they solve it, coughy?

Layman's logic tells me that if you have overboost you can only stop it from happening by reducing the boost or increasing the point at which the ECU chucks a hissy fit and goes into limp. Other than reducing the exhaust size, which we know you haven't done.

You're saying that you're running "26psi all day" so they must have moved the point at which a limp is triggered. To me that sounds potentially dangerous - I hope you're running a calibrated Dawes valve to prevent the turbo going into orbit when the ECU does get wrong footed.


Essentially they change the delay between the ECU receiving an input, and the response to the output. We're talking about periods of less than a second. In reality, when using electronic-over-vacuum control, there is always a (relatively speaking) fair lag in the actuation process, as evidenced by MNs that limp with the factory exhaust.

On my vehicle, the upper limit for boost was simply returned to pre-campaign levels (~22.5psi), so the actual alarm limit remains the same as OEM. It just gets an extra 500ms or so to stabilise. If it detects the alarm condition it can still go into limp to protect the engine/turbo. If anything, the boost control is now more stable than it was pre-tune, as the actuator is not constantly hunting, due to the steeper boost ramp.

There is also a change to the upper limit of what the air flow meter deems normal. The extra allowable air flow is matched with extra fuel to retain a good A/F ratio. There is still an alarm limit, but it is proportionally higher. Most of the issues on the MN are related to excess air flow, as the OEM fuelling table is unable to compensate for flows above "X" setting. It's just like the the good old days when your mate would throw a 2.5" exhaust on his Gemini, and then wonder why the thing ran like a dog. Once you throw a Weber on it and run a decent cam, it would go fine. Electronic controls can mask faults/compensate for a lot of mods, but they have limits. As I have said before; engine mods are like solving algebra, what you do to one side, you must do to the other.


so yer as bill has said they asure me that it is all still with in the mitsubishi guid lines
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Redneck198033 on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:18 am

BillMcQuade wrote:
NowForThe5th wrote:Thanks Bill.

So, if I replaced the throttle body with a carby it should go much better, right? :P


Triple Webers :lol:


That's some funny shit.

But it does take me back, I owned a TF Gemini with big exhaust with weber ran so hard, but the poor old fuel gauge moved like the vacuum gauge.

Great car though, no overheating or over boost on that old girl.
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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby Trever13b on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:40 am

New to this forum, I've driven tritons at work for 5 years and finally bought a 2015 Mn manual, I always thought they needed more grunt when towing so I bought and fitted a red back 3" exhaust with the resonator instead of muffler. it drives great with the camper trailer and has noticeable torque increase .

After reading this thread about over boost I am a little concerned that I may have made a bad decision. Is there a solid fix to ensure that I don't get over boost whilst I'm towing my camper trailer or driving flat out up hills overtaking.

any guidance is appreciated

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Re: Fixing the overboost issues with the MN 2.5HP

Postby ag9111 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:57 am

Read this thread Trever and then ask all the questions you want.

A 3" exhaust has been proven to give no noticeable improvements to a stock motor. I think you need your pants seat Dyno recalibrated.
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