going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

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going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby AussieAnth on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:23 pm

I've got the 2013 GLX with the stock 7" wide alloys.

I'm looking at building up a weekender/short trip wheel set, based on 265/70/r16 muddies, probably on steel Sunraysia's. Some people say +20 will be fine, some say +15 is borderline illegal, and another said +15 on 8" wide rims will be fine.

So when it comes to rim width, what changes running the same tyre on a 7" and an 8" wide rim?

Does it affect handling? I know the tyre doesnt change as such, but does it sit differently as to change handling or fitting within the wheel arch?

Do I have to choose a different offset?


Trying to get my head around what, if anything, an inch wider rim would make to the same tyre... :?
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby fridgie on Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:14 pm

Different offset will move tyre in relation to the guards.

+20 is pretty borderline, I run +30 and sits inside nicely.

Standard offset is +38, anything lower than this will move the tyres further out.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:51 pm

OK. First thing to understand is what is offset and how does this change with different wheel widths.

Offset is the measurement from the centre of the rim to the face that sits against your hub. So a 0 offset wheel will have equal amounts of its' width to the outside and inside. Positive offset means that the face is moved towards the outside of the wheel which, in turn effectively moves the wheel rim inwards.

Consider the ridiculous case of an 8" (200mm) wide wheel with 100mm positive offset. The face that mounts against the hub would be level with the outside edge of the wheel because it has been moved 100mm (half the width of the wheel) from its' position at 0 offset which would have been right in the middle.

So, if you increase the width of the wheel (say by 1" or 25mm)and maintain the same offset you would be adding half of the increase to the inside and half to the outside. So the outer edge of the wheel would now be 12.5mm further out than a 7" (175mm) wheel. Of course the inner edge would be 12.5mm further in than the 7" wheel, too.

You need to take this into consideration when making comparisons of wheels with different widths.

The standard offset on a Triton wheel is +38mm. This places the Triton tyre well inside the outer edge of the wheel arch mould which leads to the popularity of putting on wheels with a lower positive offset (thereby moving the wheel out) which fills the arch better without running foul of the various regulations.

When fitted with a 265mm wide tyre and on a 7" rim an offset of +20 will place the tyre just inside the edge of the wheel arch mould and the mudflap will cover enough that it won't draw the attention of Constable Plod sitting behind you. A zero offset is too far out.

As a bit of an aside here, I believe that the Triton was originally designed with the intention of 265mm wide tyres. This is apparent from the somewhat inwards placement of the 245s, that the MK had 265s and the Challenger has 265s with exactly the same front running gear.

If you widen your wheels then part of this extra width has already been taken up width the wider wheel. So a +20 on a 7" wheel is the same as +32.5 on an 8" wheel. (38-20=18, 18-12.5=5.5, 38-5.5=32.5)

Since most aftermarket wheels come in offsets to the nearest 10mm,then +30 in your 8" wheel would put the outside of the tyre in pretty much the same position as your +20 7" wheel.

What changes, apart from position? Well, first of all a wider wheel allows the sidewall to stand up a bit straighter. This means less sidewall squirm when cornering, so a slightly sharper response may be expected. I do note though, that you intend to fit muddies and these normally have a fair bit of tread squirm as well, so the difference won't be marked.

Standing the sidewall up a bit more will give you more height, too. Although the difference won't be very much. Still, a mm or two can mean the difference between scraping diffs, or not.

The wider wheel allows the tread to sit flatter on the road (pushing down more on the edges) so a small improvement in handling can be expected from this too.

Increasing track width will give you a bit more stability offroad. Noticeable if you have a lift as well.

The wider wheels, if they're steel, will weigh more than your alloys. This can result in a detrimental effect on handling, shock absorption and particularly braking. My muddies add maybe 30% to braking distance on standard size alloy rims. I don't think I'd like to add the effect of the extra load on the brakes trying to stop a much heavier wheel from turning and I have 4 pot calipers at the front and discs at the back. Other members have reported effects such as ABS not working with steelies, reduced braking performance and changed ride characteristics.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby salt36 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:11 pm

I am getting rid of my steel rims in favour of alloy's, for the reasons above....
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby 4wd26 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:39 pm

http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1835

from this thread- which is sticky in the wheel and tyre section

is this link

http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp

diagrammatically shows what difference wheel rim makes with the same offset and compared to factory, or whatever you would like.

baseline information from the forum states that 16x7 rim with +15 offset and 265/75/16 tyre sits in line with the flare
more positive offset will move this closer to the chassis

note that you can only have 50mm track increase (depending on state) so the "baseline" may not be legal based on that scenario.....

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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby ag9111 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:46 pm

One thing to confuse you even more.
An 8" rim will not move the position of the tyre within the guards, compared to a 7" rim, as long as the offset is the same. Change the offset and you start moving the tyre within the guards.
Start changing offset and width and you have to be very careful as you can start fouling components very quickly.

I run 265 75 16 muddies on king steel 8" rims at +15 offset. Technically I would consider these to be illegal as the tyre is outside the flare line by about 5mm.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby AussieAnth on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:30 am

Thanks guys. I have a pretty good understanding of offsets, thanks mostly to reading up on this site. I was just a bit unsure if the offset has to be adjusted going from 7" to 8" rims to maintain the same position within the guards.

Can someone clarify the following 2 statements above, as they seem to disagree:


Chris says...
So, if you increase the width of the wheel (say by 1" or 25mm)and maintain the same offset you would be adding half of the increase to the inside and half to the outside. So the outer edge of the wheel would now be 12.5mm further out than a 7" (175mm) wheel. Of course the inner edge would be 12.5mm further in than the 7" wheel, too.

If you widen your wheels then part of this extra width has already been taken up width the wider wheel. So a +20 on a 7" wheel is the same as +32.5 on an 8" wheel. (38-20=18, 18-12.5=5.5, 38-5.5=32.5)

Since most aftermarket wheels come in offsets to the nearest 10mm,then +30 in your 8" wheel would put the outside of the tyre in pretty much the same position as your +20 7" wheel.


And then Ag9111 says:
An 8" rim will not move the position of the tyre within the guards, compared to a 7" rim, as long as the offset is the same. Change the offset and you start moving the tyre within the guards.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Cowboy Dave on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:53 am

What Garth was saying I think was that if you have the same tyre for both rims, you're still going to have the tyre (not the rim) in the same spot. So they don't actually contradict, one is about the rim and one about the rubber.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby ag9111 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:36 pm

Spot on Dave :D

It can be very confusing, playing with width and offset.

Let Google be your friend, there are some pretty good explanations online, and some terrible ones
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Cowboy Dave on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:49 pm

That site with the calculators on it that shows the wheel and tyre shifting in and out as you change the numbers is the one that makes it work in my head, much easier looking at that than words.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby AussieAnth on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:33 pm

cool, thanks guys for the explanation. I think I've got it.

A 7" wheel will have the tyre wall bulging out a bit more.
An 8" wheel will have the same tyre wall sitting a bit more straight, therefore making the overall height of the tyre ever so slightly taller.

I'm going to fit 265/70/16 muddies to the GLX. I was hoping to get some used Alloys but finding a suitable offset is going to prove difficult, so I might have to go the cheap Sunraysia design steel rim.

So correct me if I'm wrong, based on recommendations I've had, +20 offset on a 7" or +30 on an 8" is the way to go, keeping the tyre close to the widest legal stance without modifying the wheel arches.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:32 am

Yep, that's about it.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby ag9111 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:28 pm

7" or 8" rim at +20 offset will both fit and make absolutely no difference. The tyre is wider than the rim so the rim size is insignificant.

You don't need to go to a +30 offset if you are after width
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:32 pm

A picture, as they say, is worth a thousand words.

So, 265/70R16 tyre on a 7" wheel with +20mm offset.
Click to view larger picture

As you can see, it's borderline. Legal, but only just.

If that same tyre was on an 8" wheel with the same offset (+20), the outside edge of the tyre would be 12.5mm further out. IMO that would put it at the point of being illegal.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Hondon on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:06 pm

ya sure it would make the tyre stick out further?? same tyre same offset ....should be the same IMO ..the tyre will only be 12.5mm wider at the bead..which is further in than the edge of the tyre....??.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Bazzer87 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:20 pm

My -20 offset alloys stick out a lot! :lol: cops are generally a bit friendly in country towns with that sort of thing though
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:00 pm

Hondon wrote:ya sure it would make the tyre stick out further?? same tyre same offset ....should be the same IMO ..the tyre will only be 12.5mm wider at the bead..which is further in than the edge of the tyre....??.



Yes, positive.

Again, a picture is worth a thousand words.

This quick sketch shows the relative positions of the outer edge of 7" and 8" wheels with a variety of different offsets, positioned as they would be on the vehicle.

For the sake of simplicity, 1 inch is taken to be 25mm.

(Click to view full image)
Click to view larger picture
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Cowboy Dave on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:38 pm

Aren't we back to mixing tyres with rims again?
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:08 pm

Not at all. As the rim moves out, so will the tyre.

What Hondon was questioning was whether an 8" rim with +20 offset would change the position of the outside edge of the tyre vs a 7" rim with the same +20 offset. It certainly does, by 12.5mm.

The sketch above only shows the outer half (because I didn't plan it on the page real well and couldn't be bothered redrawing it), but that's the bit that matters.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Cowboy Dave on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:30 pm

Yeah but the width of the tread doesn't change with a wider rim if you're using the exact same tyre, just the sidewall will have a slightly different profile. Here's a diagram which I didn't draw which I think explains what I'm trying to say:

Offset pictorial.JPG


My reading of that is that we still end up with the widest point being the outside edge of the tire at the widest point and if that website picture (which comes from a calculator thing designed to show the effect of changing rims/tyres) is to be accepted then they are equivalent in the before and after at that point.

The calculator thing came from here: http://www.tire-size-calculator.info/

I don't pretend to actually understand all of this but I just thought that we'd gone around in a circle and come back to a spot where we were the other day so we should try and get it all clear for those like me who haven't quite got a handle on the mechanics of it all.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby Hondon on Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:03 am

cd you are on the money with what I'm saying ..with the same offset a 265 tyre is still going to be a 265 tyre regardless of 7 or 8 inch rim with same offset as the bead / tyre meets rim inside the edge of the tyre...hense the edge of the tyre will be relatively in the same position..
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby sydneymark on Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:37 am

not sure if this takes the thread more or less on topic, but I have a my13 glx with factory alloys and I understood them to be 16" x 7.5 with an 38 offset, not 7" wide

will have to take one off to make sure but thought i read this in another thread
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby c-dale on Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:46 am

Given previous comments about the sidewall standing up a little more in the wider rim. I would assuse you would get better pretection for your rims using the 7" over the 8"??? As the gutter etc is more likely to impact the tyre first.
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby 4wd26 on Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:57 am

^^^^ correct and the rim itself is narrower and away from the curb/ rocks by ~12mm
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Re: going from 7" to 8" wide rims....what does this change?

Postby sydneymark on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:13 am

sydneymark wrote:not sure if this takes the thread more or less on topic, but I have a my13 glx with factory alloys and I understood them to be 16" x 7.5 with an 38 offset, not 7" wide

will have to take one off to make sure but thought i read this in another thread


mystery solved, i took a wheel off and had a look.

I am running 16x7 with a 38 offset on my alloy rims :)
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