Mk triton lift/shocks

[ashlittler]

Hey new member here ,I have had an eye on the site for a couple of weeks now and learnt a fair amount.

I have just got myself a 2004 mk v6, 177,000 ks - stock standard, anyway the front suspension has sagged, I am wanting to lift it up. I don't carry tools in the ute - it's just a weekend toy for camping and the days in the dunes/bush. So after finding the treads on as many "mk's" as I can, I understand its a new triton site... So there wasn't to many (unless I am looking in the wrong place)

My thoughts are replacing shocks all the way around, adjusting the TB to a reasonable height, this I am unsure of due to angle of the cv's? I am guessing totally level is stock height?
As far as I see it not worth changing the TB as a HD bar only has thicker metal - stronger spring obviously. But not helping me In height.

Replace shocks on the rear and fit greasable rear shackles.

That way I have a fairly cheap lift of around the $600 - $700 mark.

My problem is I don't keep cars/4x4s long enough to do a complete overhaul.

I love the cars and love to learn as much as I can about them while I have them. So as much information on my questions above would be great.

Also any treads you think would be helpful please send me in the right direction.

Thanks

[Blue]

Welcome ashlittler...

CV's will likely not be your biggest issue at the front... I ran out of adjustment for camber long before I was at stupid CV angles with my MK... Camber is adjusted via shims on the upper control arm and there really isn't much adjustment available...

[jamesb_bau]

Cheaply done >
FRONT.
.Remove front bump stops (down travel) and cut them down some ( above half)
. replace bump stops with new bolts (lower profile head type ..Allen key )
.Wind up front end to desirable height (may need to re-index torsion bars)
. (check measurements on each side)
. Wheel alightment (may need shim adjustment bolts replaced for longer ones)

REAR
. Add some extended shackles or new springs to suit..

I had this set up on my MK for sometime. CV angles were fine.

Rob

[ultimate]

My thoughts are replacing shocks all the way around, adjusting the TB to a reasonable height, this I am unsure of due to angle of the cv's? I am guessing totally level is stock height?
As far as I see it not worth changing the TB as a HD bar only has thicker metal - stronger spring obviously. But not helping me In height.

The more you wind up a torsion bar, the less flexibility you have. A proper aftermarket torsion bar achieves the extra height through the increased spring rate (Just the same as on a coil sprung vehicle). They will hold a 40mm lift with full range of movement. For on and off road performance, upgrading the torsion bars makes the biggest difference.

[ashlittler]

Thanks for the reply's.

Ok ultimate thats great i didnt know that. i shall defo take a look at how much down travel i lose with the stock tb wound up slightly. If i am not happy i will defo look into new tb. I am in perth - shame you dont have a store over here.

James nice one, that sounds pretty do-able. what size tyres were you running and how high did you have to go for this?

I have not body lift...looking at 265/75 on stock rims (16) - if it can be done?

[ashlittler]

Bit of an update, I up-graded my shocks all round to Ironman FoamCells and i am really happy with the result, The front still seems to sag even after adjusting the TB a couple of times.

I have been reading 4x4 Action mag and they suggest removing a leaf (or two) out of the rear springs (still standard) to give it more flex and to improve the harsh ride. I dont carry any weight in the back of the dual cab only when touring.

So my question is -

Do i remove a leaf for better flex and leave it at that?

Remove a leaf and get leafs reset +25-30mm?

Remove a leaf and fit 2' extended shackles?

Pro's and cons please.

[ashlittler]

What would be the advantage / disadvantage in fitting 30mm extended shackles rather than getting your rear lead re-set + 30mm?

[macca002]

Removing a leaf from the primary pack will give you more droop (flex). You will loose around 25mm or os of height in the rear. You will keep the same load carrying ability, but secondary pack will engage earlier.

Removing a leaf from the secondary pack will give you a drop in height and a small amount of droop. You also wont be able to carry as much.

To fix the droop in height from either of these 2 methods can be achieved by longer shackles. The idea shackle angle is as close to 45degrees as you can get.

45 degrees will give you maximum droop/tuck (up travel). 90 degree angle will give only lift - no droop/minimal up travel and basically ride like an old wagon (shyte).

The 'best' leaf suspension setup for articulation without going 1/4 flip is flat leaves but at a height you want. The more you arc the leaves to gain lift, the less droop they can do.

4x4 suspension basically comes down to the following:

Lift
Load
Flex

You can only have 2 of the 3.

[ashlittler]

Thanks macca, I am going to take the leafs out today, so when you say "primary" (first leaf) "secondary" (second shortest) is that right?

Weight carrying is not such am issue as its just normally camping gear.

So would the best set up be the second shortest leaf "secondary pack" which will give me a loss in height but more droop/flex. I have orered the shackles so that should give some of the height back. And then get them as close to 45 as possible?

[macca002]

Secondary pack is the short thick leaves at the bottom. Primary pack is the longer thinner leaves at the top.
Look at taking the 3rd leaf out from the primary pack - the one below the shackle and wrap and see how you go.
If the stepping isn't too bad, then leave it as is for a week or two to settle.

One thing to note, when messing with leaf springs, use a clamp to hold the pack together when undoing the centrebolt. Otherwise it may spring open and cause serious injury.

[ashlittler]

Just got underneath the ute, my stock s tackle has been welded to the drop down section of the chassis, that can't be correct ?

Also I have 3 primary leafs and 2 secondary leafs, the 3rd primary leaf that sits on top of the secondary leaf has the clamp around it so possibly be better to take out the longer of the secondary leafs?

[macca002]

You can always pry open the spring clamps and find somewhere to flex it up. Opening these clamps to a 90 degree position will allow the leaves to open up more - giving more droop. The amount of droop increased changes with different amount of weight pulling down.

Bigger tyres - more weight - more down pull on the leaves.

You can remove a leaf from the secondary pack, but it wont achieve any results that will blow your mind. You are guaranteed to still loose height in the back though.

Primary leaves are what do most of the work. Secondary leaves only come into play once the primaries are maxed out. Removing a leaf from the secondary will allow your leaves to 'tuck' more into the guard as it will allow the primary leaf pack to hyperextend a little more, which gives a false impression of droop gain on the opposite side.

[macca002]

Ideally you need to find a ramp to test your RTI before and after doing any modifications to see if you are actually getting any substantial gains. Do this with the shock removed for optimal outcome (and to see if you need longer shocks without going too long)

[macca002]

Here are the figured from my old 4x4.
IFS Torsion bar front, leaf rear - so basically same as what you are running.

RTI Before:
Rear - 409
Front - 388
Total: 797

RTI After:
Rear - 649
Front - 624
Total: 1273

Achieved by building a bastard rear leaf back, and 10mm balljoint spacers up front (all TAC approved modifications)

Total cost - about $200.

Tuck:


Droop:


Flex:


Front Flex:


This was achieved by the method posting above. Long thin primary pack (picked up used IFS hilux standard leaves from suspension shop for $100 to add to my bastard pack), slightly longer shackles to correct rear height and still running the 2 load leaves (full secondary pack) for camping trips/carrying load.

Total was 5 leaves in primary pack, 2 load leaves in secondary pack.

Find a ramp, take some measurements and mess around a bit to see what give you the best gains. Dont be afraid to give it a go. Even measure up the leaves you have now and see what you can find similar for nix (or close to it)

[ashlittler]

I am giving this a go as we speak so your advice is much appreciated.
So the spring clamps (one either end) that wrap over the top of the top leaf (there is about 10mm from the top of the top leaf to the underside of the spring clamp) I can straighten them up so the join is pointing towards the sky...? That will allow more movement - I see what your saying.
Also if I open them up I can split the leaf pack and take out the shorter leaf of the primary pack.

[ashlittler]

Infact if I take out the shorter primary leaf that's the leaf that the spring clamps are attached to. (Holding the 3 primary leafs together. Is that still do-able?

How did you straighten out the right angle bends on the spring clamps?

You got greAt results doing this looking at your pics, that's the kind of thing am after.

[macca002]

The easiest way to straighten them out is by removing the leaf and doing it on a workbench/anvil/vice/etc
Having said that, if you are persistant, you can usually pry them open enough with the leaves still installed.

If you do decide to pull your leaves apart and mess about with them, invest in a can of graphite paint. Once you have the rear suspension working the way you want it to, pull them all apart (again). Go over with a wire brush and give them all a few coats of graphite paint. It will reduce the friction between leaves a heap.

Can buy it from any farming store, as its primarily used for heavy machinery such as tractors.

[ashlittler]

Ok I taken the leafs out completely, separated the pack by undoing the bolt thru the middle. The two secondary leafs fell apart, there is 3 primary leafs , the smallest of the 3 (the one I should be removing) is the one that has the leaf clamps fitted to. The middle one if the primary has a round at the front that wraps around the 1st leaf where it bolts to the chassis.

I am a bit confused as to if I seperate them and remove the smaller one I lose the leaf clamps altogether, it will still have the bolt right thru the remaining 4. But what would stop the leafs from pivoting?

It's all lose now and on the bench so easy to work on.

[macca002]

U bolts will stop the leafs from pivoting. However, since you have them all apart. Take some of the primary leaves with you and go hit up some of the suspension places and ask to take a rummage through their bins. See if you can find some leaves slightly longer than the ones you have. IFS Hilux leaves would be a possible option.
If you can get some that are 10-15mm longer, then you are set. I wouldn't go longer than 15mm as it will shift your diff back a couple of mm which can cause a shudder if you don't add a small spacer.

I would try the following.
4 leaf with longer 1&2 leaves in primary - the ones with full and semi wrap
3 leaf with longer 3 leaf in primary - the one which would hold clamps

Whatever droop you loose, you can gain with the longer shackle - if you go with a slightly longer leaf (idea outcome) or if you stick with the standard primary pack, then another shorter of the load bearing leaves.

If you want more info, do a google search on 'bastard leaf packs'. Heaps and heaps on info on setting up the suspension to give you the gains you want.

Just keep in mind the lift/load/flex rule

[ultimate]

Bit of an update, I up-graded my shocks all round to Ironman FoamCells and i am really happy with the result, The front still seems to sag even after adjusting the TB a couple of times.

This just shows that your Torsion bars are not rated for your application and have lost their memory. If you keep adjusting them, you are going to snap the bolts or torsion bars themselves. I strongly recommend you upgrade to aftermarket torsion bars. In reference to your earlier comment;

As far as I see it not worth changing the TB as a HD bar only has thicker metal - stronger spring obviously. But not helping me In height.

Aftermarket torsion bars gain the extra height through the increased spring rate. This is exactly the same as raising a coil sprung vehicle with a higher rated coil.

Infact if I take out the shorter primary leaf that's the leaf that the spring clamps are attached to. (Holding the 3 primary leafs together. Is that still do-able?

With modifying your spring pack, you really need to decide if you want to keep your vehicle legal for road use. Removing a leaf from an original spring pack will reduce the load rating which is illegal and compensating with extended shackles is also illegal.

Removing a leaf can improve ride quality and flexibility but it all depends on the spring design. Some publications make blanket statements which aren't true of all vehicles and set ups. I would take your vehicle down to a local suspension shop/spring works and see what they recommend.

Three leaves in the first stage is the minimum I would run on any four wheel drive. If you remove any of these leaves, you significantly increase the risk of breaking the main leaf. You may also find with a leaf out of the first stage that the vehicle will sit right on top of the second stage- making the ride considerably harder. I also wouldn't remove the retainer clamps.

A local spring works may be able to de-camber the original second stage to provide more clearance to the first stage. This will provide a softer ride and more uptravel. The load rating will still be acceptable but the vehicle will sit lower when fully loaded.

[macca002]

With modifying your spring pack, you really need to decide if you want to keep your vehicle legal for road use. Removing a leaf from an original spring pack will reduce the load rating which is illegal and compensating with extended shackles is also illegal.

Interesting statement as I have done all of the above on my previous vehicle (pictured above) and had no problems with getting TAC and Engineering approval for the vehicle.

It may be different rules for different states, however I have also had vehicles pass RWC (and engineering again) in QLD and NSW with similar mods.

QLD was extended snake racing shackles and modified leaf pack
NSW was modified leaf pack.

I did not suggest removing the retaining clamps, but opening them up to look like a |_| shape as this will keep your leaf pack aligned when flexing them open/closed. Removing altogether can over time cause the leaves to slightly shift out of alignment - especially if your U-Bolts are loose.

Agreed with the 3 leaf minimum primary leaf pack. However I also do not understand how modifying your load rating is illegal when suspension shops sell different rated suspension packages? Lowering a car is a primary example of reducing load rating, which is not illegal to do.

[ultimate]

The NSW RTA basically fired all of their engineers and made them reapply for approval. They did this because so many were signing off on illegal and dangerous modifications. This process has weeded a few of them out.

Agreed with the 3 leaf minimum primary leaf pack. However I also do not understand how modifying your load rating is illegal when suspension shops sell different rated suspension packages? Lowering a car is a primary example of reducing load rating, which is not illegal to do.

Most lowering kits will lower the trim height without de-rating the load carrying capacity. A lot of the sports low coils actually have a higher spring rate than the originals.

When it comes to lowering leaf springs, a few different techniques like reversing the eyes and de-cambering the spring are used to achieve the desired height without reducing the strength of the pack. Here's a picture of an F250 4x4 we lowered at the end of last year. We lowered it around 2" below standard without losing any capacity in the spring.

[macca002]

Without starting a rant session, I still dont see how running a bastard leaf pack is going to be completely illegal and frowned upon though. Longer shackles 'maybe' in NSW. (However I do not live in NSW anymore so cannot comment on the legalities there)

Not everyone can afford to go and purchase a new set of leaves. Running a different set of leaves will change the ride, but so would buying a set of leaves off the shelf. Would running a mix of triton/hilux leaves give the same load rating if you ran the same number of leaves - given both have similar load ratings?

Also it should be worth noting that If reducing load rating makes the vehicle illegal, then everyone who removes a load leaf would also be making their vehicle illegal.

When it comes to 4x4/Car modifications the 'legalities' of a mod usually become a grey zone and each owner will weigh the risks up in their heads. There are a heap of mods available (even off the shelf) that are technically 'illegal' yet you can still buy/fit/insure them.

I guess the water becomes muddied again when you buy a suspension lift, fit it and then run bigger tyres.
Lift 'may' be legal (if its under a set height) but then bigger than 50mm tyres are illegal anyways.

Anyways, IMO you should give the bastard pack a go. Obviously you are trying to do something on some kind of budget, and a DIY is always great. For a small cost you can build the suspension setup in a way which will give you the gains you require.

- I also think you will get pinned faster running a stupid lift than a standard height (or close to it) 4x4 that flexes a bit more.

Each to their own I guess.

[ag9111]

If you illegally modify your car then it is an automatic out for the insurance company. ALL insurance PDF's will have in it somewhere that the vehicle must be legal. Have a look in yours, they ALL have it. If you then tell the insurance company about these illegal mods then you are setting yourself up for a fall. Happened to a mate of mine a few years back. Knocked back on illegal tyres and suspension

In NSW, extended shackle's, lower load rated suspension, lower load rated rims, lower load and speed rated tyres are all illegal

[macca002]

However if its TAC and engineer approved, then hardly illegal - which is what I went through. Extended shackles are not illegal where I live, however a combined lift greater than 100mm need TAC.

Also it could be argued that putting together a bastard spring pack also does not change load rating if you end up with similar setup as before - just more flex. Only way an insurance company would prove otherwise would be testing it.