Random Triton IFS ravings

Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:30 pm

4wd26 wrote:the tone ring can be easily removed from a busted cv.
it fits on via friction

will see if I can get a measurement today- I actually have a couple of busted cv's here and a tone ring that has been removed. can be refitted to ML triton glx cv's (as the early model glx did not come with ABS ;) )

Just fit the MN outer CV to the front axle assemblies, no need to machine and stuff around making stuff that already exists. :D
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby Tom B on Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:05 am

AussieTriton wrote:
Tom B wrote:
MrPlow wrote:Any idea what the internal diameter of the tone ring is?


Doubt it will fit your application mate.

You'll need an abs relocation kit to move the ring to the hub, as with manual hubs the cvs won't turn rendering abs useless

Marks adapters should have something

Uhm, manual hubs WONT fit a ML or MN. If you are planning a SAS on a MN, then you will need to fit the MN tone ring to the back of the hub and position the sensor as on the Mitsu knuckle to retain ABS. If you have a ML, this isn't necessary.


Sorry mate, I believe it drifted a little off topic, Plow talking about running abs on a solid axle??
No more Triton....

Now where did I leave that Patrol ;)
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:49 pm

QUOTE: If you are planning a SAS on a MN, then you will need to fit the MN tone ring to the back of the hub and position the sensor as on the Mitsu knuckle to retain ABS. If you have a ML, this isn't necessary.


Oh? I wasn't? :shock: Sorry.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby salt36 on Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 pm

Kegsy wrote:Scary :lol: I can only imagine what that goes through :twisted:

Any more pics? or a link?


http://www.chapmansoffroadracing.com/

Their new Triton looks the goods too 8-)
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby NowForThe5th on Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:52 am

:o :shock: :o :shock: Look at the front suspension movement in the first video on that page! Very 8-) 8-)
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:12 pm

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Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby motoz on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:24 pm

salt36 wrote:
Kegsy wrote:Scary :lol: I can only imagine what that goes through :twisted:

Any more pics? or a link?


http://www.chapmansoffroadracing.com/

Their new Triton looks the goods too 8-)


It used too...

Click to view larger picture

Broken LCA...

Click to view larger picture

:lol:
Last edited by motoz on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby Tony81 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:31 pm

:o :o :o ouch
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby Sootie on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:38 pm

^ Indeed, looks like it would be tricky to make that stronger too
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby Kegsy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:57 pm

salt36 wrote:
Kegsy wrote:Scary :lol: I can only imagine what that goes through :twisted:

Any more pics? or a link?


http://www.chapmansoffroadracing.com/

Their new Triton looks the goods too 8-)


thanks salt :mrgreen:
Triton be gone :cry:
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby RHKTriton on Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:39 pm

Stick your Triton body on a Jeep Rubicon Wrangler chassis - problem solved! Hehe..

I think IFS was never intended for hard offroad but instead make Utes more car like in ride and handling.

What the aftermarket guys have achieved with their "enhancements" deserves great recognition.

With most IFS setups, the offset location of the front diff is the cause of all the potential problems with lifting.

If it could be located in the centre of the chassis then the drive shafts could be much longer while reducing CV angles. Bugger that there is a sump with crank and other bits wizzing around in that spot.

Maybe a horizontal engine mounted over a centre mounted front diff. would be a better design?
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby macca002 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:07 pm

If it was as simple as centre diff location, then it wouldn't be hard to raise engine enough to fit the front diff under.

IFS has come a long way, and it is here to stay. Take a look at the latest cruiser for example.

You can get plenty of movement out of the front end with things like aftermarket UCAs and diff drops.

The gap between IFS and Solid axle is getting smaller and smaller and will continue to do so with more and more makes dropping solid from for IFS comfort.

Upgrading to spherical outer CV joints would make the front end much stronger in our 4x4s but not many ppl look at doing this due to cost.

No doubt IRS will start becoming more common too....which hopefully means the cost of spherical upgrades would become more affordable for most avid wheelers.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby motoz on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:29 pm

TRITON ML 4X4 MODEL 3 INCH LIFT KIT
MITSUBISHI TRITON ML 4X4 MODEL 3 INCH LIFT KIT

PRICE: 1,490 USD

The Kit includes
Upper Arm
Drop Crossmembers
Diff Drop Brackets
Tail shaft spacers
Compression Braces
Front Braces
Ubolts
Lift blocks Kit
Front Strut Extensions
Standard Export Packing

Click to view larger picture

:cool:
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:47 pm

All the way from Thailand :D
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby salt36 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:53 pm

RHKTriton wrote:Stick your Triton body on a Jeep Rubicon Wrangler chassis - problem solved! Hehe..

I think IFS was never intended for hard offroad but instead make Utes more car like in ride and handling.

What the aftermarket guys have achieved with their "enhancements" deserves great recognition.

With most IFS setups, the offset location of the front diff is the cause of all the potential problems with lifting.

If it could be located in the centre of the chassis then the drive shafts could be much longer while reducing CV angles. Bugger that there is a sump with crank and other bits wizzing around in that spot.

Maybe a horizontal engine mounted over a centre mounted front diff. would be a better design?


A revamped 'dry' sump system would do it, at least for the V6, only has to loose a couple of inches.......
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby motoz on Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:29 pm

AussieTriton wrote:All the way from Thailand :D


Philippines actually... lol

They came recommended from the guys at King shock absorbers.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby RHKTriton on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:59 pm

That kit looks scary.

Think of the forces your front wheels cop while you are zooming along on a rough road.

Those upper arms look like something you'd make for a home made go-kart!

Murphy help us if stuff like that Tri pic is actually getting on the road - more to it than just welding bits and pieces together.

The Ultimate guys must be rolling on the floor laughing at some of the stuff they've encountered.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby scalvert on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:29 am

motoz wrote:TRITON ML 4X4 MODEL 3 INCH LIFT KIT
MITSUBISHI TRITON ML 4X4 MODEL 3 INCH LIFT KIT

PRICE: 1,490 USD

The Kit includes
Upper Arm
Drop Crossmembers
Diff Drop Brackets
Tail shaft spacers
Compression Braces
Front Braces
Ubolts
Lift blocks Kit
Front Strut Extensions
Standard Export Packing

Click to view larger picture

:cool:


That kit us quite interesting, it seems like a lit of work has gone into making it strong. The upper control arms and diff drop bracket would be useful, cant be too much longer and snake racing releasr something for triton.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:12 am

motoz wrote:
AussieTriton wrote:All the way from Thailand :D


Philippines actually... lol

They came recommended from the guys at King shock absorbers.


+66 country code is Thailand, +668 is a Thai mobile prefix. :D
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby ultimate on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:36 am

I posted this about two years ago in the diff drop thread. Most of it is still relevant to this thread.

As Stefanos said, you generally do not require a diff drop for a 2" lift. Most CV failures have resulted from driver error, front Lockers or abuse. The CVs on the Triton are like a fuse and will fail before major damage is done to the diff and other drive line components. We did look into after market CVs but decided against it after a bit of testing which showed that strengthening the CVs is only going to transfer the stress further up the line.

Personally I believe if you stick with a 2" lift and do not modify the control arms or bump stops, you shouldn't have many problems. I have seen Tritons go through Hell and back to prove it :lol:

BEN115 wrote:
diff drop kit will make u lose any benifit you gained from your lift..... hardened cv shafts and joints if you break the standard ones. . . .


But then you can run larger tyres like 35" 36" and regain that lift though it does start to run into possible brake upgrades and other 'toughening' of the vehicle to make them reliable enough to warrant them in the first place.


I agree and don't think you lose out much at all. The whole point of the drop kit is to correct the steering and suspension geometry with a bigger lift and allow larger tyres (hence ground clearance). Raising the vehicle so that it forces the control arms down (providing more under diff clearance) is OK for mud and ruts, but it is not right from a handling dynamics point of view and overall suspension performance. We have been building drop kits for over 15 years and not one of the kits has lower ground clearance compared to the original suspension. What they do have is a larger lift, more wheel travel and improved performance and reliability.

The hardest part with diff drops in Australia is making them legal. You simply can't engineer the larger tyres anymore and most states are not allowing kits over 50mm on an IFS vehicle. We have had our Hilux Smart lift in production for over since 2006 and to date have had more 60 vehicles engineered with it. Even with this history, we can not sell the 4" kit into QLD as the department of main roads and transport will not allow anything over 50mm on the Hilux. We have gone right to the top of the department and were told they will not even allow an engineer to assess it (even though every other state and territory has approved it. :shock:)

There are plenty of Kits available in Asia for the Triton but virtually none of these kits can be legally approved in Australia. We were about 90% through the R&D on our Australian built kit when we had to put it on hold for this reason. If you are devoted on getting a diff drop, Superior are now bringing in the BTV kits and there are other brands available like Sun, Unicorn and ZAW4x4. Stefanos has the zaw4x4 kit which is pictured below. http://www.zaw4x4liftkit.com/index.php? ... =539312216

Click to view larger picture
Click to view larger picture

We actually did a test fit on one of his kits about 3 years ago when we were starting the R&D on our kit. Here's a few old photos of it fitted.

Click to view larger picture
Click to view larger picture

After a lot of testing, we determined that this kit is not ADR compliant or suitable for Australian conditions. A few other companies have since imported the kit and scrapped it as well.

The RTA and other state departments are finalising all of the new laws which will make it incredibly difficult to engineer anything over 50mm on an IFS vehicle. Even with the current laws, there is a possibility of getting the ML through on a 3" lift but not the MN due to ESC. Legitimate engineers will not sign of on it because there are so many gray areas and unpredictable elements. I know a lot people say they don't care about engineering and haven't been busted before. I hope you can understand that it is difficult (both morally and legally) for a company like ours to supply a part which is not legal for street use. Any illegal component which is supplied for a registered vehicle is considered a breach of the Australian Consumer Laws as the product is deemed "unfit for intended purpose". This is dangerous grounds for any business because if the customer can show they "didn't know" about the legalities; the supplier is responsible for all costs involved including the removal or return of the item.

The RTA has also spent a lot of time and money on the development of a comprehensive database which every police office and inspector will have access to. This will allow quick and easy measurement of everything from trim height, tyre size and wheel track.

I know this post covers a few different topics but hopefully everyone can see how it all ties in together.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:27 pm

Good write-up, Brendan.
I’m gonna expand on some of my previous ravings re: wider track v lift restrictions, etc. :roll:

First, lift restrictions.
While most of us can’t understand why 50mm is the current max, there are reasons why I think the authorities have decided on this figure. One of the test parameters for this is that the vehicle test dynamics are based around the vehicle being loaded to its maximum carrying capacity. In this condition, it reacts much more to lateral loads (ie swerving, off camber and angles associated with off road activities, etc.) and therefore, more likely to roll over. Even allowing the max track increase of 50mm, the stability of the vehicle is pushed to the limits. The way the vehicle is loaded is also important to these tests, as a heavy mass low on the chassis (a load of bricks, for example) will be more stable than a higher more bulky mass (a large piece of machinery). So, to allow for some of these variables, a maximum height is calculated to keep the vehicle upright based on the wheelbase, track width and height. These factors are easily calculated with modern software, but actual testing is needed to make sure that these calculations are correct. My motorsport experience tells me that widening the track (wheels, suspension alignment, etc.) and lowering the vehicle make it more stable and handle better by keeping the car mass as low as possible.

Diff lowering (Triton).
Lowering the front diff in the Triton is a waste of time. Period. While it MIGHT allow a slightly longer CV life, it throws other problems into the mix. I’ve spent a few hours under mine with the covers off and taken dozens of measurements and pictures to help with my goal, only to realise that it’s a worthless exercise. The loss of ground clearance cannot be made up in a lift inside the lawful parameters. The rear X member must be lowered to allow the nose of the diff to come down, and lowering the casing puts the fragile front cover closer to damaging rocks etc, which means lower skid plates, less GC and defeats the purpose of the lift. On American trucks and big lifts, the diff MUST be lowered with the lower arm mounting points to keep everything in alignment, as the knuckle is longer at the top to allow the drop of the main suspension pieces. On the Triton, we are just moving the axle shaft lower at the inner end with possible interference with the lower arm at full droop. Without dropping the lower A arm mounting points at the same time, it’s just not practical. A waste of time and money, in my opinion. :lol:

Now, here comes the track width increase.
Here is my theory: :roll:

Imagine a triangle. The base of the triangle is the ground. The length of the base is the track width (1600mm for reference) and the height of the point is the centre of gravity of the vehicle (800mm). When the vehicle is lifted (lets say 100mm for reference sake) the triangle is higher with a narrow height to width ratio (less than 2:1), and easier to tip over, with me so far? :D
Now, we take the triangle with 1600 x 800 and make the base wider (125mm, my intended track increase from my kit idea) and look at our triangle now. We have a shape that is much harder to tip over, due to the much better height to width ratio (better than 2:1 @ 1725 x 800, 2.156:1 to be exact). In real life, this is a HUGE difference in stability, hence the reason the Chapmans have increased the track on the Pajero and Triton so much. It’s all about wheel travel AND stability over rough ground. Still with me? :D
Now, we take the track increase and lift the COG 70mm (my projected height increase and come up with 1725 x 870 (1.982:1). That’s less than 2% different from factory, and well within the MN’s ESC capabilities. Add a 17” rim and tyre package to this and the math is even closer. I put this to my Engineer in a long email on Friday last week and the reply back is VERY favourable. He will consult with some other engineers on this and get back to me, but in his words, the math puts the track increase based on my theory in a good position for approval, and with FEA to back it up, I could get the green light for prototyping. The rear axle will need to be widened a like amount (120mm) but I plan on using a Currie Track 9 with Triton ends and possibly Pajero discs grafted on, or even Wilwood’s offerings to get rid of those useless drums. Anyway, that’s my input, feel free to flame away. :D
Last edited by AussieTriton on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby brodical on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:46 pm

Mate I followed what you were saying and you described it well and seems you know hell of a lot about this stuff...very technical and very interesting.. Will be watching and waiting for further developments....great write up ...excellent work.. Love the triangle explanation ...
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby RHKTriton on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:53 pm

Sounds like the making of a road Predator AT.

Can just picture the Tri's bodywork with super wide flared guards - an off-road Le Mans dirt biter! AWSOME!

Suzis have got onto the road over the years with extended axles so properly engineered mid size 4x4 shouldn't be impossible.

All the regs are a bit academic when you see Ford utes getting around with Fence gates made out of I-beams as bull bars and rod holders mounted in such as way that a pedestrian is going to get a grating and a half on impact. Have never seen any of these types of situations get pulled over.

If mods can be shown to be of a sound and safe design then there should be a legal path to allow them.
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby jop on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:53 am

Is there any reason for the competition strength diffs?

Why not bolt in a pajero disc rear and use wheel offset?

Unless you are planning on entering KOH, mitsu diffs are fairly strong ;)
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Re: Random Triton IFS ravings

Postby AussieTriton on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:22 am

jop wrote:Is there any reason for the competition strength diffs?

Why not bolt in a pajero disc rear and use wheel offset?

Unless you are planning on entering KOH, mitsu diffs are fairly strong ;)


The Mitsu rear diff is fine as far as strength, except the cost of parts from Mitsubishi. The front diff....... wel it's marginal under heavy stress. The Chapmans seem to break quite a few, reading from their website. With well-thought out suspension upgrades, I could use 2WD more and keep the overkill rear end taking the stress rather than killing the front diff un-necessarily. The other purpose of the Track 9 is to give me a wider choice of diff centres and gear ratios. 9" gears range from 2.50:1 to 6.50:1 in small increments and an amazing plethora of LSD, lockers, etc to choose from at much lower prices than Mitsu stuff. I plan to leave the front diff with an open centre, or use a Trutrac if they were available. A locker will only overwork the already fragile CV joints and create more headaches. The other plus is the number of bolt-on disc brake kits available Stateside that can be used on the rear to improve braking.
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