handling completely altered by rear & bull bar.....normal?

[Homer]

If there's an adult sized seat and strap I'll have a crack

[Cowboy Dave]

Oh, just to clarify, I'll be wanting the strap back. The kid you can hold onto for a bit...

[AussieAnth]

Yeah but I'd need several of the little bugger

[Cowboy Dave]

He's 14, if you feed him enough he should weigh about right.

[viking shippy]

Aussie Anthony
Mate seriously I don't want to offend you but..
...stop wasting your energy....and work on getting some real results..
The struts are obviously to long....I'd remoove one and get whoever sold it to you
or installed it to bend over....lol....now seriously get your truck to a suspension expert ASAP for a independent inspection ..
as your set up you have right now is just downright dangerous.....

[snowman]

yes even with the added weight on the front a 3mm gap is not enough!

as much as the weight in the rear can effect the front height marginally (you need a lot of weight to start doing that in my opinion - especially if you have upgraded rear springs) these front are just too high.

CD's offer of his son, although clearly a great offer is probably better suited as a shu-roo than ballast cause he is twice the weight when he gets dressed.

for the others reading here, it is this issue that so many of us have recommended Ultimate. I know there is a small band who think we are just some sort of elitist tossers but i can assure you if he had purchased this from Ultimate and they saw that bump stop photo - it would be sorted pronto without the owner going through a protracted thread of posting for answers and borrowing other forum members temporarily unwanted children to sort it out.

[AussieAnth]

Ok thanks for all the feedback and advice. I'll speak to the installer first, then to an independent suspension place. Can anyone recommend a good Ultimate installer in range of the NE Melbourne suburbs? Happy to travel a bit.

So is the consensus that the struts are too long? Haro suggested earlier the coils need to be shorter.

[NowForThe5th]

So is the consensus that the struts are too long?

No, mate. having longer struts is no issue in the front (unless the length limits compression) because the limits of the suspension is defined by the bump stops.

The problem you have is with the coils. You need to understand that there are different ways in which a certain suspension height can be achieved. You can have longer, softer springs (which compress to the desired height) or you can have shorter, harder springs that don't compress as easily. Following this thread it would appear that you have the latter. It's not really clear whether they are constant rate or progressive (progressive being softer initially and then getting harder as they're compressed more). I suspect constant rate. This would explain the harsh ride, certainly in compression. Generally springs of this type are specified for heavy duty applications - heavy loads or a lot of heavy accessories all the time.

Certainly with a winch and bullbar you need heavier than the standard coils but your model, I believe, comes with the standard raised height coils, so not much heavier..

The real crux of your problems though is that you've attacked the issue the wrong way around. Time and time again new members ask the question and they're told to do their accessories first then only add suspension once the final weight of the vehicle is known. They're also told to go to a suspension specialist who can specify a setup and actually tailor it to the axle weights rather than just choosing an 'off the shelf' item, even if there are choices. As Snowman said, this is not because we're all in cahoots with a particular suspension manufacturer but is, rather, the benefit of the mistakes many, perhaps most, of us made in the early days of this series of the Triton. The initial savings were almost inevitably lost when we found that what we'd chosen just didn't work, or worse, failed.

Suspension engineering is an incredibly complex thing. It needs many years of experience with a specific vehicle to be able to accurately and consistently specify a combination of spring and shock absorber that will give optimum performance on a vehicle which is unique, even amongst its peers. The local mechanic or the counter jockey who's last sale was a set of wiper blades or driving lights just don't have this kind of expertise. Nor do they have the technology to build a unique combination tailored for your vehicle and needs. We are fortunate indeed to have a forum sponsor who has these capabilities but they're not the only organisation with this capacity. I'd suggest though, that they are unmatched in experience with the Triton and this also is an important point. What worked with a Land Cruiser, Patrol or Defender most likely won't work with a Triton. Brand loyalty is commendable but wasted if there is a better alternative.

I see that you now intend to talk with an independent suspension supplier. I think that really is the right move. Hopefully they can help you achieve what you need without too much expense.

[Snooozy]

Can anyone recommend a good Ultimate installer in range of the NE Melbourne suburbs? Happy to travel a bit.

Black Widow in New Gisborne are Ultimate installers (or were last I heard)

[AussieAnth]

Thanks for all the advice. Its a complex situation, and difficult for you guys to give the right advice when I'm no expert on suspension, and perhaps had some misconceptions and misunderstandings about the setup and how it should drive.

This is further hampered by the mix of advice I'm getting back, such as "struts are definitely too long", and "coils are definitely too long". Can't blame a guy for being confused.

I was very happy with the EFS setup on my old BT50, not firm, but handled great on and off road. In comparison, the Triton was initially very firm compared to factory setup. Its clear this firm setup was due to it riding on the top bump stops, without the extra weight of bullbar/winch/rear bar as required for HD coils.

All this unfairly skewed my initial opinion of the handling after the bar work install, which prompted this thread. In retrospect, it might not be that bad. Sports car-like handling is great, and suddenly loosing it just didn't seem right, but now at least can be explained. What I need to concentrate on is getting a setup that will be safe, comfortable and predictable on and off road.

Having seen the front will settle another 3mm from the bump stops with only 30kg more on the front, it seems likely the setup is probably working as intended, it just needs more weight. The front springs are designed for a minimum 75kg of accessories, and I haven't hit weight yet. By adding a 35+kg winch, and a body or 2 in the cabin, I hope the front will come down to a suitable height, and stop riding on the bump stops.

The other thing to consider here could be the CV angles that Haro pointed out. But perhaps the weight of a winch and driver will straighten the angle out.

Anyone else think the CV angle is possibly a problem?
Since the suspension is still so new, is it reasonable to expect a little settling over the next few months?

I've read enough good info about Ultimate outside the forums, and considering how much you guys praise it, I fully accept Ultimate is an excellent choice, and given my time again maybe I would have fitted it instead.

Based on some of the feedback I've received, I seemed to have developed an opinion that I should have a firm "on rails" setup on the road that is also comfortable off road and not harsh. Every firm 4x4 I've ever driven has not ridden so comfortably off road, so this "best of both worlds" handling some claim to have is foreign to me. Its always been a matter of finding the right compromise in my experience.

I'm going to speak to the EFS installer, try to fit a winch really soon so I've got the weight I'll run in the long term, and then re-asses. I'll also go visit a recommended Ultimate installer for a 2nd opinion. I also need to put some Kms on it off road, otherwise all my feedback is based on bitumen driving, which isn't the point of the Triton.

Thanks again for all the constructive feedback so far. I'll update again as this progresses.

[NowForThe5th]

That's a good attitude you have there, Anth. I think that the term "handles like it's on rails" needs to be qualified as comparitive, though.

While my Pajero has been off the road this week I've been driving a VE SS Commodore. It's good to put things into perspective occasionally.

The Paj handles way better than the Triton with much longer control arms at the front and the rears are mounted inboard at the diff so reminiscent of an off road racer. Heaps of body roll though, but that's the price you pay for long travel and the ability to flex easily off road..

What I'm saying is that there's no way that something that stands 2 metres tall and sits 400mm off the ground is ever going to handle like the SS. I haven't driven one but by all reports the rear sway bar that Ultimate have does make a very big difference to the Triton's handling on road, without a real off road penalty.

[snowman]

Anth,

Here are a couple of comments. Again maybe it is a bit late for your queries but plenty of people read these forums who are about to do exactly what you want to do, but never post a word. There are plenty of people here who are far more technical than me - so i am going to write this in laymans terms for those that are trying to get their head around all of this.

So here are a couple of random comments. Some may agree , some may think a little differently but all worthy of discussion.

1. You can't get that perfect suspension arrangement (with a one off purchase) until the vehicle is at its final weight. You speak about passengers etc (which is valid) but i can assure you all those pics of others suspension clearances to bump stops is probably without passengers.

2. I can assure you that the difference from OEM suspension to a 'decent' aftermarket arrangement is significant. Now i wouldn't put it up against a sportscar for performance but for driving a 4WD on the road and handling within reasonable limits i could not go back to OEM on my ML. I have said for about 5 years the OEM arrangement is dangerous.

3. Weight bearing aside (my new MN rear leaves inverted over christmas with what i considered to be a moderate load only) the single biggest problem with the ML-MN is poor damping from well under rated shocks.

4. If you don't carry any significant load in a modern (say MY14 and on) MN then a good set of shock absorbers will probably solve 90% of the poor OEM handling. That said if you do carry in the rear you will need to uprate the springs.

5. Remember the springs carry the load and determine the height. The shocks (also known as the strut in the front coil over arrangement) are there to control the spring movement themselves.

6. If you don't adjust anything on the front of our ML-MN's apart from the coilover strut assembly (spring/strut) there IS NO ADDITIONAL TRAVEL DISTANCE GAINED. This is because the geometry of the front end does not change. you may get more flex due to the selected springs (or lose some as i did with the very heavy duty Dobinson spring i have) and certainly height based on the spring rate and length but the 'lift' (height) that is gained is purely from moving the normal static height higher up the normal OEM path of travel.

7. The issue of CV's is clearly contentious and at some point you have to decide what is best for yourself. With any lift including yours which is currently MAXED OUT on FULL EXTENTION is still within the original OEM limit. However when you stress the CV at this max limit all the time and especially when you are placing high stresses on it off road you DO expose yourself to increased breakage. This is fact. From the 20 blokes i know on here (personally) and the 5 odd years i have had my car, as well as the expert advice from people such as Ultimate, it is considered that 50mm of lift from the OEM 'unweighted' position is really the sweet spot of lift (clearance) to reliability. Carefully note that, you may get an increased lift from your 'weighted' OEM suspension level greater than 50mm but that is only due to the extra weight sagging your car lower prior to the lift.

7. It is unfair to expect an aftermarket suspension company (no matter who they are) to provide you with a suspension that works properly both prior to, and after, significant weight has been added, especially to the front end that is more susceptible to these changes.

8. The above point is not just due to the 'lift' but also to the 'spring rate'. depending on the spring rate the strut is usually matched to work with that spring rate. For example i have a steel bullbar, winch (poly rope) and side rails (note NO dual battery in the front). I went with the heaviest Dobinson spring they had. Mine have not noticeably sagged BUT my original Dobinson struts were too weak (underdamped) for those very strong springs and i ended up replacing them with an Ultimate strut (the only piece of Ultimate equipment in my sussy for the record). That said i reckon these struts are very tired now because they work very hard against this spring. In hindsight (i bought my aftermarket sussy before Ultimate were too far into the Triton development) i would have gone with a slightly softer spring and probably a spacer to provide the lift i was after. when many of us did a 4x4 Action shoot on suspension my car had the least suspension travel, but, when all the weight was on one front wheel, i also had the most lift because the spring was not compressing as much. On road i have no issues with the handling but others who have driven it said it does not have as good a 'turn in' as theirs. So without doubt it costs me some on road manners.

9. I cannot stress enough that driving around on the bump stops (or only 3mm) is not enough. it basically means if you hit a depression in the road you wheel will lift off the ground as it has no down travel. You have some options i guess which include: get an adjustable coil over which allows you to wind it up or down to suit your load at the time (Monster Rides for example) or replace the spring now to suit your current weight, or add all your weight now (i.e. buy and install the winch) and then see if it works. In my opinion if you added that 30kg (which is pretty close for a poly rope winch) and you still only have 3mm then you need to change those springs.

Without doubt replacing the OEM suspension is probably the single safest and enjoyable things i have done. At around 2k it is not cheap but you WILL get benefits both on and off road.

[AussieAnth]

Thanks Snowman, there are some excellent pointers on that part that would serve the NewTriton.net community well if it was turned into a "Lessons on Triton Suspension 101" sticky in the suspension area, for all the newcomers.

While lots of stuff is debatable, a list of universal recommendations and warnings would be valuable for all. All too often, the best info gets lost in the noise and debating of a multi-page thread. Just look at the EGR thread. How anyone filters all the right info out is beyond me