KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

[motoz]

This debate is all academic.

The people who want and will buy this product also want either 33's or 35's so I don't think they really care about the 50mm limit.

Just being honest.

[Spotty]

So what is the base line for a 50mm lift? Is it the standard height of the vehicle from factory? If so what is that number? I thought some of the later mn's came in at 570-575 at the front from the factory so that should give earlier owners a reason to be happy?

[Cowboy Dave]

Better off looking at the ride heights thread for this info

[Kegsy]

Look up the specs... http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au

[c-dale]

QLD transport held a Q&A session on vehicle mods tonight. Scolling through the questions and found this one.

[BillMcQuade]

Can we take that as a no?

[motoz]

Sucks to live in QLD

[L200Shogun]

Maybe in another place. It was suggested the guy ( TMR Martin) was confused with drop spindles.

[c-dale]

Nick (Charger) responded on a facebook group I admin. Said that its legal under the NCOP and that federal law trumps state law in court. Not too sure I'm to end up in court to prove a point though.

[Cowboy Dave]

He'd be wrong if he said that in this case. The NCOP is not really federal law in the first place and as we've all seen in this area and for example in the area of the Australian road rules they only have as much power as they're given by state based legislation. Not every state adopts the same stuff, at the same time or in the same way and often the states can't resist the temptation to impose their own variations.

Not to mention that the engineer who blue plates your vehicle, the registration authority, authorised inspectors and police will all be following local acts and regulations and not federal.

I'm not saying there may not be a way to do it, but if the explanation is simply federal trumps state then further thought and investigation is required.

[Dans Tri]

I doubt the police will be hunting down 3 inch lifted Tritons with diff drops. What about the thousands of hiluxs, rangers and everything else that have had diff drops for some time now.

[Cowboy Dave]

Being legal and being caught are different things. If the seller is saying it's legal you'd like to think that's correct.

[c-dale]

To be honest Dan I think its just a matter of time before it happens. Look what happened to the ricer scene. Police came down hard and fast, made it near impossible to mod you car and get away with it and have been on top of it since. The new trend seems to be 4x4s hence the issues with tracks getting closed. Blokes with stupid big tyres and stupid big lifts go in rip it up without regard and places get shut down. As it becomes more and more obvious that there are more and more 'unroadworthy' (and I use that term loosely) cars on the road it will be the same as the ricers. Hard, fast with no grey areas.

I hope that day is a long time off but my feeling is its just round the corner

On the upside the harder the regs the more some of the big companies are banding together to push back and spending money to prove that mods are often better and safer than factory.

[black sabbath]

These products DO NOT require separate approvals to be used on Public roads within Australia.

Tie Rods - AdjustableDrag Links - AdjustablePanhard Rods - Adjustable and FixedUpper Control Arms (UCA's) - With Chromoly HeimsLower Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedUpper Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedRadius Arms - With Sway Bar Holes FittedSway Bars - SuperFlex & Heavy Duty DesignSway Bar Relocation PlatesSway Bar ExtensionsDrop Out Cones - Bolt-OnCoil RetainersU-Bolt PlatesDiff Drop KitsTorque BarsTorsion Bar Reinforcing KitsReplacement Strut TopsLadder Bar KitsCamber Adjuster KitsCastor Correction Plates - Bolt-OnCastor WedgesRadius Arm Spacer WashersRadius Arm Bush Cups

Check out the current NCOP Vehicle Standards Bulletin

[c-dale]

The current NCOP also states that the MAX a vehicle can be raised is 50mm.



Current QLD regs refer to NCOP but state 75mm is the MAX



The waters are muddy.

[4wd26]

^^^^ I think that is a brave call

Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14
National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (VSB 14)
Important Information for Users
Users of VSB 14 need to be aware that this document needs to be used in conjunction with the appropriate administrative requirements of the jurisdiction in which they wish to either register a vehicle or to obtain approval for a modification for an already registered vehicle. Administrative requirements include, amongst other things, processes for vehicle registration, obtaining exemptions, obtaining modification approvals, vehicle inspections, preparation and submission of reports and the payment of appropriate fees and charges.
If unsure of any of the requirements specified in VSB 14, or if more information is needed for any other issues concerning the administrative requirements, users should contact their relevant Registration Authority prior to commencing any work.
While VSB 14 provides advice on the construction of Individually Constructed Vehicles (ICVs) and the execution of modifications, it is not to be taken to be a design manual. Determination of component strength, performance, suitability and functionality must be either calculated or determined on a case by case basis by suitably qualified personnel experienced in each matter under consideration.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP11_Section_LS_Tyres_Suspension_Steering_Nov_2015_v4.pdf

this is a code- it is not enforceable in all juristictions

If the QLD dept of transport deem the diff drop an illegal modification- it is illegal in this state

NCOP don't change anything if the state decides it does not, I still remember QLD being fixed to 15mm increase in tyre diameter for 20 years, even thou there was a national code and most other states adopted something different.

Same as different states still choose to interpret the light bar issue differently- it is the states interpretation



Now that's not to say that the kit can not be used elsewhere, BUT I would be checking it out pretty thoroughly if you are registered in QLD

From the QLD TMR website

Queensland Code of Practice: Vehicle Modifications

The Queensland Code of Practice: Vehicle Modifications (the QCOP) is an approved code of practice that provides the requirements for modifications that are unique to Queensland, and are not be included in the NCOP.

These modifications are:
LC1—Dual-controls for driver trainer vehicles (Design)
LC2—Dual-controls for driver trainer vehicles (Modification)
LC3—Vehicle controls for persons with a disability (Design)
LC4—Vehicle controls for persons with a disability (Modification)
LH9 – Street Rod Certification (Concessional)
LH10 – Street Rod Certification (Full)
LS9 – High Lift – 50mm-125mm (Design)
LS10 - High Lift – 50mm-125mm (Modification)

The Queensland Code of Practice (PDF, 392 KB) is available for download.

A bit deeper into LS9 QLD

1.2 Designs not covered by Code LS9
Designs that are not covered under Code LS9 are listed below:
• Design for vehicles originally equipped with ESC that have not been approved by the vehicle manufacturer or proven through testing;

So maybe available for ML model tritons, but you are still limited to 75mm total lift (suspension and tyres)
I think this is where QLD have used the blanket approach regarding diff drop.

you don't need a diff drop to keep within the 2" standard
you can fit aftermarket control arms etc as long as the lift does not exceed 75mm

so we keep on going around and around- what one person suggests as allowable, another reading the code may form a different view.- the cops and QLD transport may interpret another way.

Yes sucks to be in QLD- but TMR said no in an information session, dreaming/ wishing ain't going to change anything

sure you can test the law and drive a vehicle, but a diff drop and 35" tyres jungle flares wider than legal offset rims etc etc is going to cause $$$ pain in the long run-especially if you run up the arse of a merc and insurance wipes you/ claim

middle age brings about some thought as to how I can keep my financial security
I might not agree with it, but from a cost (loosing everything $$$$) benefit (looking cool ) point of view
I like my house triton and other toys too much


maybe I should take the time to look up the other states "additions" / amendments restrictions or non compliance to the NCOP- I couldn't be bothered, I know MINE (QLD) but I recommend anyone looking to do mods like this knows there restrictions

just because someone on facebook, the seller or even here says something is the case and legal, even a printout in your glovebox ain't going to mean anything

[Cowboy Dave]

These products DO NOT require separate approvals to be used on Public roads within Australia.

Tie Rods - AdjustableDrag Links - AdjustablePanhard Rods - Adjustable and FixedUpper Control Arms (UCA's) - With Chromoly HeimsLower Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedUpper Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedRadius Arms - With Sway Bar Holes FittedSway Bars - SuperFlex & Heavy Duty DesignSway Bar Relocation PlatesSway Bar ExtensionsDrop Out Cones - Bolt-OnCoil RetainersU-Bolt PlatesDiff Drop KitsTorque BarsTorsion Bar Reinforcing KitsReplacement Strut TopsLadder Bar KitsCamber Adjuster KitsCastor Correction Plates - Bolt-OnCastor WedgesRadius Arm Spacer WashersRadius Arm Bush Cups

Check out the current NCOP Vehicle Standards Bulletin

It's more than brave. Or is that worse than brave?

I don't mean to offend, but if you/re going to make a call as big as that, which flies in the face of all of the evidence, you should back it up. And you should disclose whether you happen to be mates with the people involved, and/or if you're a previously banned member back with yet another username here to cause trouble (for example).

Alternatively, if you actually have a basis for the claimed expertise - like you work for DOTARS or RMS or VicRoads or something, let's hear about it and let the discussion continue.

Unfortunately this thread has always sailed dangerously close to advertising, and I'd thank Charger for his restraint in not pushing that line, but if it is going to degenerate in the manner that such things have in the past then we might (unfortunately) have to take steps to stop that.

Let's try and keep things calm, rational and factual please.

[Cowboy Dave]

From VSB 14, which appears to be the latest version on the relevant website:

RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LAWS OF AUSTRALIAN JURISDICTIONS
Subject to Federal laws and the laws of the States and Territories of Australia, VSB 14 defines
standards of practice for the design and manufacture of ICVs and the modification of production
vehicles. Other procedures may be acceptable subject to adequate technical justification.
Nothing in VSB 14 is to be regarded as in any way limiting the powers and duties of the
Minister, Chief Executive Officer or Road Transport Authority of the jurisdiction in question, or
any agent or employee of that Officer, under the appropriate legislation of that jurisdiction.
Where any ADR, any Rule of the AVSR or any Australian Standard is referred to in VSB 14, the
appropriate ADR, Rule or Australian Standard should be read in full to avoid misinterpretation.
Each jurisdiction may have a different title for its adopted version of the AVSR and there may
also be differences in rule or clause numbers.
Vehicle owners, registered operators, modifiers or builders must seek advice from the
appropriate jurisdiction if in doubt about any of the above issues.

and

NOTICE TO USERS OF VSB 14
Vehicle owners, registered operators, builders and modifiers of vehicles need to be aware that
compliance with this VSB 14 does not guarantee that a vehicle will be acceptable for
registration in the case of an ICV, or for continued registration in the case of a modified
registered production vehicle. If, for example, an ICV does not handle or brake satisfactorily or
has any other feature that renders the vehicle unsafe or not roadworthy, it will not be accepted
for registration.
Builders and owners need to keep abreast of changes to legislation and vehicle registration
policy in their jurisdiction, particularly in cases where a project is expected to take some years to
complete. Changes to legislation before a vehicle is completed may mean that certain vehicles
cannot be registered without appropriate modifications. Similarly, regulations pertaining to
vehicle modifications, vehicle standards or registration policy may change causing certain
vehicle modifications to become unacceptable in the future.

This is what I was talking about in my post the other night - the application of NCOP etc is not universal across all states. The website has tonnes of disclaimers about this and other things.

[BillMcQuade]

These products DO NOT require separate approvals to be used on Public roads within Australia.

Tie Rods - AdjustableDrag Links - AdjustablePanhard Rods - Adjustable and FixedUpper Control Arms (UCA's) - With Chromoly HeimsLower Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedUpper Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedRadius Arms - With Sway Bar Holes FittedSway Bars - SuperFlex & Heavy Duty DesignSway Bar Relocation PlatesSway Bar ExtensionsDrop Out Cones - Bolt-OnCoil RetainersU-Bolt PlatesDiff Drop KitsTorque BarsTorsion Bar Reinforcing KitsReplacement Strut TopsLadder Bar KitsCamber Adjuster KitsCastor Correction Plates - Bolt-OnCastor WedgesRadius Arm Spacer WashersRadius Arm Bush Cups

Check out the current NCOP Vehicle Standards Bulletin

Try getting a vehicle through Blue Slip in NSW with aftermarket control arms, you don't have a hope in hell, unless you have an engineer's certificate. You won't get one of those, unless the engineer has approved the design of the control arms, which he won't, because he won't be able to get the required documentation from the manufacturer, proving they meet the design requirements for the vehicle, especially with ESC.

You could fit them to a registered car, but will be in world of hurt if you prang it. Your insurance company will seek any opportunity to avoid paying out.

It's all about liability. I wouldn't stick my neck out and sign off on aftermarket control arms, when all it takes is one peanut on the road to have a fatality, and have the blame placed on the modified suspension. I guarantee this will happen in NSW, and then the poo will really hit the fan. Quite rightly so, as some of the monster trucks I see getting around with various bits of RHS welded underneath them are ticking time-bombs.

Some of the more radically modified vehicles that I have looked at are not even close to being safe, let alone legal, and yet they are driving around, sharing the road with our wives and kids. The people that are passing these vehicles for Pink Slip should also be watching their behinds, as the RMS is well aware of the problem, and is more than willing to conduct more audits of examiners. Like I said, it only take one, well-publicised incident to start the whole chain reaction.

[Cowboy Dave]

Glad I don't live in WA:

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-police-to-introduce-roadside-4wd-and-truck-inspection-station-20160225-gn3ryr.html

[Tony]

Shakers have been used in NSW over the past. Not good for live stock in transit.

[mattz]

Glad I don't live in WA:

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-police-to-introduce-roadside-4wd-and-truck-inspection-station-20160225-gn3ryr.html

I can't believe they are so far behind the times and don't have one already.
Interesting that they have specifically mentioned 4wds for their testing.

[black sabbath]

These products DO NOT require separate approvals to be used on Public roads within Australia.

Tie Rods - AdjustableDrag Links - AdjustablePanhard Rods - Adjustable and FixedUpper Control Arms (UCA's) - With Chromoly HeimsLower Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedUpper Rear Control Arms - Adjustable and FixedRadius Arms - With Sway Bar Holes FittedSway Bars - SuperFlex & Heavy Duty DesignSway Bar Relocation PlatesSway Bar ExtensionsDrop Out Cones - Bolt-OnCoil RetainersU-Bolt PlatesDiff Drop KitsTorque BarsTorsion Bar Reinforcing KitsReplacement Strut TopsLadder Bar KitsCamber Adjuster KitsCastor Correction Plates - Bolt-OnCastor WedgesRadius Arm Spacer WashersRadius Arm Bush Cups

Check out the current NCOP Vehicle Standards Bulletin

It's more than brave. Or is that worse than brave?

I don't mean to offend, but if you/re going to make a call as big as that, which flies in the face of all of the evidence, you should back it up. And you should disclose whether you happen to be mates with the people involved, and/or if you're a previously banned member back with yet another username here to cause trouble (for example).

Alternatively, if you actually have a basis for the claimed expertise - like you work for DOTARS or RMS or VicRoads or something, let's hear about it and let the discussion continue.

Unfortunately this thread has always sailed dangerously close to advertising, and I'd thank Charger for his restraint in not pushing that line, but if it is going to degenerate in the manner that such things have in the past then we might (unfortunately) have to take steps to stop that.

Let's try and keep things calm, rational and factual please.

HI Cowboy!
First of all i am calm mate, don't low whats given you the indication that i aren't,
Second , i do belive i wrote to check the link on superiors page, so given that your hands are quick enough to right back some backlash i am sure you can go there and check it yourself…
Third, you're asking me to disclose info on who i am ??? I'm sorry who are you ???
I am a member just like anyone else is here mate so i deserve the right to talk about products just the way everyone else does…
Since you seem to be quite educated, please tell me which part of the forum advertising or sponsorship rules i have broken with any of my above posts , otherwise your comment is null and void.

So since i originally posted about this topic of conversation (being diff drop kits) these guys went out to Toolangi over the weekend and put the kits to the test…
I managed to find the youtube footage through Facebook… Seems as though the Kits paired with lockers and crawlers is the way to go if you want a capable ifs rig!
First one is Rocky Track second is Walking Track

Enjoy

[black sabbath]

[Cowboy Dave]

HI Cowboy!
First of all i am calm mate, don't low whats given you the indication that i aren't,
Second , i do belive i wrote to check the link on superiors page, so given that your hands are quick enough to right back some backlash i am sure you can go there and check it yourself…
Third, you're asking me to disclose info on who i am ??? I'm sorry who are you ???
I am a member just like anyone else is here mate so i deserve the right to talk about products just the way everyone else does…
Since you seem to be quite educated, please tell me which part of the forum advertising or sponsorship rules i have broken with any of my above posts , otherwise your comment is null and void.

So since i originally posted about this topic of conversation (being diff drop kits) these guys went out to Toolangi over the weekend and put the kits to the test…
I managed to find the youtube footage through Facebook… Seems as though the Kits paired with lockers and crawlers is the way to go if you want a capable ifs rig!
First one is Rocky Track second is Walking Track

Enjoy

1. I wasn't suggesting you weren't calm. I was asking that future posts remain calm. If you want to take it personally, you do have a history of posts which were less than calm so the comment would have been fair if it had been directed at you.

2. I didn't see any suggestion to read superiors page, so i don't know what you're referring to there. Even if you had I can't see how that would have helped unless we're letting suspension shops write the law now.

3. No I'm not asking you to disclose who you are - I'm asking you to disclose your connections to the vendors of the product, or perhaps your expertise in making the unsubstantiated comments you made above, which have the appearance of being untrue as the subsequent posts all demonstrated.

4. Null and void? Seriously? My reference to advertising was a reference to this whole thread. Nick/Charger has had enough respect for the forum rules not to push that line. Did I say you were going too far? No, actually I was reminding people that care was necessary not to push the line too much if we wanted to keep this thread going.

5. I'm sure half of facebook has seen those videos by now. At least anyone on the various triton groups. One of the people in one of the vehicles is a lovely bloke who calls himself John Citizen. He can't seem to bring himself to use his real name. He's used several different names on this forum and he's someone you've had some interactions with according to your own previous posts. His previous user names here have been banned as he's always been a trouble maker. He continues to write all sorts of insulting stuff about this forum and its moderators and its members on facebook. Is posting the videos just a bit of friendly self promotion or is some sort of viral marketing attempt to get the business moving for Karrman? I don't know, but again it is sailing very close to the wind.