KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby black sabbath on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:08 am

Hi guys, just had a peep on facebook and noticed a guy by the name of nick kotter is bringing out a diff drop kit through Karrman suspension products.

I spoke to him very briefly via pm and he said it will be the first kit to be engineered for australian road use.

My question to you is, do any of you know him well enough to find out rough ball park figure as he told me he needs to work all that out after all costs incur.

I dont know how to post photos but his kit can be seen on facebook.
Looks pretty good.
Looking at getting one when i can afford it. ;)
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby explorer.dave on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:59 am

FYI Nick Kotter is charger265 on this forum. Another Australian / Thai engineered diff drop kit :roll:
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby black sabbath on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:24 am

explorer.dave wrote:FYI Nick Kotter is charger265 on this forum. Another Australian / Thai engineered diff drop kit :roll:


Thanks for the info dave ;)
You say another australian/thai engineered kit... is there more australian engineered kits available?
If so can you please point me in that direction?
Thanks mate
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby explorer.dave on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:37 am

black sabbath wrote:
explorer.dave wrote:FYI Nick Kotter is charger265 on this forum. Another Australian / Thai engineered diff drop kit :roll:


Thanks for the info dave ;)
You say another australian/thai engineered kit... is there more australian engineered kits available?
If so can you please point me in that direction?
Thanks mate


My reference was to Stiddy's OzTriton kit, which, has never really come to fruitation and is also the source of some "bad blood" amongst the Triton community (Nick Kotter) included. I am not on facebook but am sure that l read some time back of two other Tritons getting around with Australian engineered kits (this was a reference made by some-body on the facebook Triton site, don't recall who).
From my understanding all the kits are Thai imports that are strengthened and pass an engineer inspection, then rebranded as "Australian Engineered Diff Drop Kits" :lol: .
I'm sure "Charger265" will pipe in and correct any mis-information. ;)
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby Cowboy Dave on Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:43 am

George Kyro also did one of his own and Dobinsons are selling one that looks like it might be much the same - but it's hard to tell just from photos.

Nick claims his is different but only time will tell.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby charger265 on Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:08 pm

Hmm this is interesting...

Just so everyone is aware this kit is not for sale and will not be until approved.

Pre requirements for kit to be sold under my name as the co developer and exclusive Australian distributor
Upper control arms to be 3D parasolid modelled
Under go FEA testing (finite element analysis) Stress testing and strength tests to conform they are stronger than original UCA's
Roll centre and bump steer testing

All of the above will needs to be signed of by VicRoads preferred engineer who specialises in light commercial vehicle modifications
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby mattz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Well played :lol:
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby Joel on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:20 pm

If you have to ask, you cant afford it :lol:
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby mattz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:39 pm

Tex wrote:Yeah but how much will it be :P :lol:

Not sure but I do know everything else about it. :lol:

In all seriousness I hope it's better quality than the infomercial marketing that is being used. Only time will tell.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby BillMcQuade on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:40 pm

charger265 wrote:Hmm this is interesting...

Just so everyone is aware this kit is not for sale and will not be until approved.

Pre requirements for kit to be sold under my name as the co developer and exclusive Australian distributor
Upper control arms to be 3D parasolid modelled
Under go FEA testing (finite element analysis) Stress testing and strength tests to conform they are stronger than original UCA's
Roll centre and bump steer testing

All of the above will needs to be signed of by VicRoads preferred engineer who specialises in light commercial vehicle modifications


Why not make them here, where you can have full control over QA and manufacturing? I've seen a lot of imported gear that is "approved" and the welding isn't worth a pinch of shit; bugger all penetration, and full of inclusions. I'm sure the one that they sent for approval was a gem, but the volume overseas production models rarely play out that way.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby charger265 on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:04 pm

BillMcQuade wrote:
Why not make them here, where you can have full control over QA and manufacturing? I've seen a lot of imported gear that is "approved" and the welding isn't worth a pinch of shit; bugger all penetration, and full of inclusions. I'm sure the one that they sent for approval was a gem, but the volume overseas production models rarely play out that way.


I do have full control over manufacturing.

Most dont know but i have owned business in thailand. Currently have a number of staff in Philippines as well as a partner retail outlet in PH.. So i am fully aware of the quality control issues that arise from having equipment manufactured overseas.

Further more my partner in thailand is an EU citizen. The manufacturing plant also supplies products to major car manufactures with skilled workers.
Having a background in fabrication and held several welding certificates from pressure pipe Tig/underwater ark/ aircraft ally tig along with an engineering mechanical and material science diploma's i really do understand the importance of safety and quality control. This is why im taking the steps to have every kit sold in Australia inspected by a VicRoads VASS certified engineer and stamped with a serial ID that can be traced back to an engineering report.

Im sorry to say this as i would have loved to have the kit produced in Australia to support our local workers but simply its a stupid business decision.. It would just add to much cost to the kit in fabrication hours which would then have to be handed onto the consumer. In this day and age people want everything for the best price so all im trying to do is deliver a product that meets all quality standards for the best price...

With all that has happened with the "Diff drop" in the past and major manufactures putting stickers on a thai products and calling their own then selling them with no engineering approval that could possibly endanger not only the users life but along with other motorists.... I just think the whole lot has been handled with little respect for the consumers safety or best interest.

If i get to the end of the road where for what ever reason the kit can not be approved then it wont be sold by me.. Its as simple as that... Its my hard earned cash thats going into the kit.. I wanted and waited for a solution for a long time but it never came so i took the steps to make it happen... I could have been greedy about the whole thing and just done my own and im not out to make a living from selling 4x4 products... Im an enthusiast who wants a quality product...
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:18 pm

Commendable attitude, charger.

We do a few mods for customers in my shop, so I understand the process. Not always an easy road. Good luck with it, if you make it through I'm sure there will be quite a few standing in line wanting one.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby krazed on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:11 pm

yup i know a handfull me included ;)
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby Kuff on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:19 pm

Just because it is not made in Australia doesn't mean it's shit. Having worked for Toyota in their design and R&D I can assure you parts sourced from Taiwan, Thailand, Brazil and South Africa have been to the highest standards. Tooling manufactured in Indonesia has worked perfectly and could not be faulted. These countries have industries that are growing and as a result companies are not shy to spend money on technology that places here in Aus can sometimes only dream of.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby BillMcQuade on Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:13 am

charger265 wrote:
BillMcQuade wrote:
Why not make them here, where you can have full control over QA and manufacturing? I've seen a lot of imported gear that is "approved" and the welding isn't worth a pinch of shit; bugger all penetration, and full of inclusions. I'm sure the one that they sent for approval was a gem, but the volume overseas production models rarely play out that way.


I do have full control over manufacturing.

Most dont know but i have owned business in thailand. Currently have a number of staff in Philippines as well as a partner retail outlet in PH.. So i am fully aware of the quality control issues that arise from having equipment manufactured overseas.

Further more my partner in thailand is an EU citizen. The manufacturing plant also supplies products to major car manufactures with skilled workers.
Having a background in fabrication and held several welding certificates from pressure pipe Tig/underwater ark/ aircraft ally tig along with an engineering mechanical and material science diploma's i really do understand the importance of safety and quality control. This is why im taking the steps to have every kit sold in Australia inspected by a VicRoads VASS certified engineer and stamped with a serial ID that can be traced back to an engineering report.

Im sorry to say this as i would have loved to have the kit produced in Australia to support our local workers but simply its a stupid business decision.. It would just add to much cost to the kit in fabrication hours which would then have to be handed onto the consumer. In this day and age people want everything for the best price so all im trying to do is deliver a product that meets all quality standards for the best price...

With all that has happened with the "Diff drop" in the past and major manufactures putting stickers on a thai products and calling their own then selling them with no engineering approval that could possibly endanger not only the users life but along with other motorists.... I just think the whole lot has been handled with little respect for the consumers safety or best interest.

If i get to the end of the road where for what ever reason the kit can not be approved then it wont be sold by me.. Its as simple as that... Its my hard earned cash thats going into the kit.. I wanted and waited for a solution for a long time but it never came so i took the steps to make it happen... I could have been greedy about the whole thing and just done my own and im not out to make a living from selling 4x4 products... Im an enthusiast who wants a quality product...


Sounds like you have it all sorted, which I know from personal experience, takes quite a bit of time, money and effort (along with the ongoing QA :shock: ). It's rare to find someone who takes the effort to set up the manufacturing/supply chain properly. Hopefully everything goes smoothly, and you can get your product to market quickly.

Good luck with the engineering, and I look forward to seeing your product on the shelves.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby schilgsy on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:34 pm

:lol: Ha Ha, I love it when people spend 30, 40, 50 grand on a vehicle built in Thailand then bag any aftermarket part built down the road. If you trust them to build your car that you load your own family into, why not trust their other manufacturing workshops. If vicroads approves it other states will follow.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby 4wd26 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:54 pm

schilgsy wrote::lol: Ha Ha, I love it when people spend 30, 40, 50 grand on a vehicle built in Thailand then bag any aftermarket part built down the road. If you trust them to build your car that you load your own family into, why not trust their other manufacturing workshops. If vicroads approves it other states will follow.



that's not usually how it works.

state approval is only good for that state, other states will request the entire process begin again, and not necessarily have the same outcome.

you need "type" approval for a "national compliance" and that has to be done and fitted when the vehicle is new
https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/standards/certification/

think GVM upgrades, as this is essentially the same process.

so along those lines

http://www.pedders.com.au/kits/gvm-upgrades
read this

but basically

Post Registered Vehicles
Compatibility: For used vehicles that have already been registered and present as used with many kilometres and years of driving. For such vehicles that have already been road registered, the vehicle is to be inspected by an authorised Automotive Engineer in that state and be issued with a compliance certificate. This system does vary from state to state, please contact the registration Authority in your state or territory for further information.


unless someone deems the diff drop only lifting the vehicle 2" (so what's the point) you will need a engineers certificate and then state compliance plate allowing the vehicle to be allowed to be lifted beyond 50mm

the kit can have "pre approval" if an engineer is prepared to sign off but this must be done in each state and the vehicle must be inspected paper work filled in etc.

going to be a long drawn out process to do this correctly.

easier to get a body lift approved ;) and 1/10 the cost
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby schilgsy on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:17 pm

:roll:
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby BillMcQuade on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:38 am

schilgsy wrote::lol: Ha Ha, I love it when people spend 30, 40, 50 grand on a vehicle built in Thailand then bag any aftermarket part built down the road. If you trust them to build your car that you load your own family into, why not trust their other manufacturing workshops. If vicroads approves it other states will follow.


I wasn't specifically bagging parts from Thailand. Many imported parts from around the world suffer quality control issues. I have personal experience with importing parts from all over Asia, and am fully aware that if your supply chain isn't 100% under your control, it is very easy for QA issues to arise.

Charger265 described the process by which he will ensure that he has complete and ongoing control over the manufacturing process. Also, having a business partner "in country" is a distinct advantage.

BTW, even Mitsubishi have QA issues (MN blocks, etc), It's the way that you capture and resolve the issues (in production terms and with the end user) that make a difference. To compare Mitsubishi with a small component manufacturer is also a bit simplistic. For starters, the small manufacturer lacks the vast resources of Mitsubishi, however, the smaller manufacturer is more agile, and can quickly diversify.

As to compliance, each state has its own mechanism to approve products. It requires perseverance, time, skill and lots of money to submit your product for inspection. What one state approves, may be rejected by others.......
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby black sabbath on Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:56 am

"unless someone deems the diff drop only lifting the vehicle 2" (so what's the point) you will need a engineers certificate and then state compliance plate allowing the vehicle to be allowed to be lifted beyond 50mm "

Thats why companies like dobinson etc advertise there MRR kits as a 2 inch lift kit even though they are a fully adjustable height product... If they advertised them as more theyd have to go through different processes... Also if this particular topic has peoples panties in a twist think about the suspension and shock industry, The above mentioned company in whgich also is a reputable one has none of there shocks adr approved so I dont really hear of anyone harping on about that, yet thousands run them in there cars and cart there families around in them and noone bats an eyelid... As soon as diff drop and triton gets mentioned here or on FB pages people get there Hatorade out and start Skulling...

26 have you ever had a vehicle with a body lift in it ???

They are down right horrible...

People sit here mentioning legalities etc yet most of our cars have probably got some form of illegal modification done to it....
There is a bloke selling electronic EGR valves to block egr (and labels it for off road use only) ,As far as i know there is only 1 off road used triton that isnt road registered and thats a chapmans vehicle.... isnt this an illegal modification, yet not one person mentions that here or on fb ?
If you get caught running some type of module that electronically blocks off the EGR the EPA can give you the same on the spot fine for not running a cat on your exhaust... Diff drop kits can be ENGINEERED and CAN BE DEEMED as a LEGAL modification... The egr module cant, and will never be deemed a legal mod yet no one seems to care that this OFF ROAD USE product is being sold on this site or on FB to vehicles that are road registered...

There is no fine for having a vehicle lifted above the height legality, they just make you change the suspension over to the required height by a designated time...
If the diff drop kit is Engineered strength tested and certified and deemed safe to be on that particular vehicle youre practically 90 percent there... You fill out and lodge it with your governing body (vass) as an application to modify a vehicle and send the form off and youre done (accompaning the certificates and documentation from engineer etc)... its really not that hard as people make it out to be...


Again, i dont have a problem with any of these mods including suspesnion (as i run the dobinson MRR kit myself), diff drops and electronic EGR module mods, and I am not here to put anyone down. People just need to realise everyone on here is on a public forum and they reserve the right to modify there vehicle how they wish to regardless if it is legal or not... Its not in your power to stop it from happening on the line.... So if you feel strongly towards one particular mod, realise that the same hate should apply to all, and i dont think everyones cars here are legal so how bout we hope this bloke gets all the right certifications for this kit and we can look forward to having another mod thats legally available for our vehicles :D

I can only hope to see the final product once Nick has done it and hopefully if funds at the time permit would be happy to get one.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby 4wd26 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:28 am

don't know if the hate was directed at me.

I was just correcting the incorrect assumption from the post above that one licensing body means Australia wide approval.
Also this diff drop is being touted as approved "the only approved diff drop", I was just mentioning that this is great BUT further work/ cost to either the supplier or purchaser will be required in the state governing body- you cannot fit and think it is legal- not that I give a stuff, just correcting assumptions

I wish Nick luck on the diff drop thing- long time coming, will I buy- I'll wait and see- diff drop is not the be all and end all.
geometry and how far it drops the diff/ crossmember will be important

Black Sabbath- yes have driven/ owned a vehicle with body lift and also one with a diff drop
both have problems/ benefits, and fitting is just the start of further modifications in order to maintain drivability/ stability.

one inch body lift and 2" suspension would be ideal in the triton and I'll let you know how that feels in the next month or so ;)
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby charger265 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:25 am

4wd26 is correct...

There are 2 distinct categories when dealing with lifted vehicles - Below 50mm lift and above 50mm lift

Below 50mm - the documents from the engineer will allow the kit to be fitted by any mechanic and deemed safe. This is nation wide...

Above 50mm lift - will still require each vehicle to be mod plated in the cosponsoring state of registration to be 100% legal... There is no way around this due to the restrictions in place and slightly different rules applied by each state.

How ever the information conducted in accordance with VicRoads and the VASS cert will be available to each person who purchases the kit if they so wish to have a mod plate for 3" or 4" lift... The major tests will be conducted at 2" , 3" & 4" so there will be data available to submit to your engineer of choice.

Im trying to cover most of the legalities and confirm the lifts are safe at the 3 heights to minimise the trouble users need to go through... But with any modification it does fall back on the user to make sure their vehicle meets the road laws in that state of registration.

I urge anyone who is interested in the kit to bring yourself up to speed with your local road laws and understand once you lift any vehicle over 50mm you are required to have your vehicle mod plated...

Hope that helps
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby black sabbath on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:20 am

4wd26 wrote:don't know if the hate was directed at me.

I was just correcting the incorrect assumption from the post above that one licensing body means Australia wide approval.
Also this diff drop is being touted as approved "the only approved diff drop", I was just mentioning that this is great BUT further work/ cost to either the supplier or purchaser will be required in the state governing body- you cannot fit and think it is legal- not that I give a stuff, just correcting assumptions

I wish Nick luck on the diff drop thing- long time coming, will I buy- I'll wait and see- diff drop is not the be all and end all.
geometry and how far it drops the diff/ crossmember will be important

Black Sabbath- yes have driven/ owned a vehicle with body lift and also one with a diff drop
both have problems/ benefits, and fitting is just the start of further modifications in order to maintain drivability/ stability.

one inch body lift and 2" suspension would be ideal in the triton and I'll let you know how that feels in the next month or so ;)



Hey 26 wasnt spilling hate onto your buddy hope you dont feel that way.
Glad to see you didnt see it as me being rude or direct any of the above mentioned toward you mate.

Im just meaning the triton community as a whole...
Some are for it some obviously against due to there reasons on the kit itself or the people who have perhaps tried to do one previously... all in all and coming from a ford ranger i hope that this takes off as i would love to have a well kitted up triton.
Yes my ranger was older model but couldnt justify buying the newwhen the triton offers you so much for so little.

Looking forward to this...
Watching with interest...
Could we perhaps organise a group buy if people here are interested as i will be keen as!
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby charger265 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:42 am

black sabbath wrote:Looking forward to this...
Watching with interest...
Could we perhaps organise a group buy if people here are interested as i will be keen as!


black sabbath - please note the kit is not for sale so best wait for all the reports to come back before you jump the gun..

Im please you are interested tho.. Will try to keep everyone informed and updated to the progress of the kit becoming available.
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Re: KARRMAN DIFF DROP KIT FOR ML MN

Postby L200Shogun on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:29 pm

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