secondary diesel filter

[Cowboy Dave]

Ah - that's handy. Who was it on the weekend trying to work out if the hose was 10mm or 12mm? Was it Deermaster?

Best check my PMs.

[mattz]

Did you try a search first.
Yep deermaster it was.
viewtopic.php?t=15147

[Cowboy Dave]

I knew I had a PM about it so I just found that a sent it off.

[mattz]

That's probably the first and last time I'll ever have the opportunity to send you in the right direction.
It's usually the other way around.

[AnOldFart]

Ah - that's handy. Who was it on the weekend trying to work out if the hose was 10mm or 12mm? Was it Deermaster?

Best check my PMs.

The MN's fuel tank's main fuel delivery line is 12mm ID and the fuel return line to it is 10mm ID. Also, for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread who's also thinking of fitting one of these Donaldson P550588 11 micron rated water separator kits I will now say that given the benefit of hindsight I would have instead chosen to fit a Donaldson P553207 3 micron rated separator right from the start. The reason being that the P553207 unit 'kills two birds with one stone' ie, not only does it also act as a water separator but the 99%@3 micron rating of it's filter media also acts as an effective fuel 'final polisher' as well. The P553207 is a larger filter unit at 93mm diameter and it needs a P562261 Head Unit to mount it. At 100 gph / 379 lph flow capacity rating it imposes negligable friction / restriction / delivery pressure drop on the fuel circuit. Ahhhh, the wisdom of hindsight......Aint it wonderful.....?? That's the entire bloody problem with life generally ie, it can only be really understood when viewed backwards but unfortunately for us, we always have to live it whilst we are going forwards.

[Tony]

If your fitting a finer filter it must go secondary to OEM. Fitting a 2um or 3um as pre filter is a disaster thrust me.

We did a few here for the mine fleets and had nothing but drama as soon found you need a coarser filter (Such as perfectly good oem) to strain the bones out first and that they do very well.

Hence why we go the way this thread says. fit the fine filter as a secondary.

If you want to do a really good job, go 30um as primary separator near tank (to catch large bones, some water and less restrictive), then 10um factory backed by a 2um secondary. Just means you have to carry three spare filters on a longer trip.

Personally, I think the oem backed with a quality secondary unit is more than enough and I have seen these systems save the day more than once.

Another issue with fitting sight bowl type of separators under a vehicle is small stones tend to smash them. I have one under my Rover now replaced with a CAV296 type with alloy cup as takes stones flicking up a lot better. Under vehicle is not really ideal for cartridge style filtration.

[macca002]

Would 3 filters in the system put any load on the fuel pump?

Curious as I do fill up with jerry cans and from crap servos when I don't have the choice.

Last tank was Jabiru and gave me a terrible return. 55lt only gave me 411kms. I checked the secondary sight bowl and no signs of wate.....but still convinced it was a shit batch of fuel.
- works out to be almost 14lt per 100!

Just wondering how far you take it as clean fuel is always a concern for me.

[Cowboy Dave]

That why I bought one of those filter funnels. Sadly I've never actually used it so that was a stupid idea. If I was heading into the outback I'd probably take it, especially if filling from Jerries or whatever.

I think Tony has mentioned before that if you did want to put a filter at the tank end a lift pump is not a bad idea. 3 filters seems like overkill from here, but I guess compared to an engine dying it doesn't sound quite so bad.

[AnOldFart]

If your fitting a finer filter it must go secondary to OEM. Fitting a 2um or 3um as pre filter is a disaster thrust me.

We did a few here for the mine fleets and had nothing but drama as soon found you need a coarser filter (Such as perfectly good oem) to strain the bones out first and that they do very well.

Hence why we go the way this thread says. fit the fine filter as a secondary.

If you want to do a really good job, go 30um as primary separator near tank (to catch large bones, some water and less restrictive), then 10um factory backed by a 2um secondary. Just means you have to carry three spare filters on a longer trip.

Personally, I think the oem backed with a quality secondary unit is more than enough and I have seen these systems save the day more than once.

Another issue with fitting sight bowl type of separators under a vehicle is small stones tend to smash them. I have one under my Rover now replaced with a CAV296 type with alloy cup as takes stones flicking up a lot better. Under vehicle is not really ideal for cartridge style filtration.

Hi Tony, just using pure logic I would have initially totally agreed with what you say about the desirability of always fitting a 'finer' filter after the 'coarser' OEM but after speaking with Bruce Evans who is their filter specialist at Donaldson Australia in the last couple of days I'm now not so sure about that. I've attached his eMail reply to me here so you can read it.

-----------------------------------------------

Hello Bill

The Donaldson P553207 93mm diameter fuel filter is rated 99%@3um at 100gph/379lph flow rate and it also provides water separation as well at 95% emulsified h2o efficiency. Using this high flow rate filter in your own Triton vehicle application would have absolutely negligible restriction impact upon your vehicle's supply side fuel delivery pressure.

I would not recommend fitting the additional filtration after the OEM factory filter. We always recommend fitting any additional filtration before it, and not modifying the fuel system from the factory filter to the engine, to preserve your vehicles warranty. There can sometimes be other complications with the fuel system being modified after the factory filter.

Also, removing larger contamination from the fuel before passing it through the finer filter will not actually have a huge impact on the life or performance of a finer filter which is adequately sized for a particular application. Perhaps a little surprisingly, large particles generally do not actually block filters quickly, or have a significant impact on the amount of fine particulate the filter can collect. Even if a filter is fairly packed with large contaminant, fuel, and fine particulate will still flow into the filter (to a limit, of course). In fact, a portion of larger particulate can actually assist in collecting finer particulate. Further, the 11um P550588 filter that you are already using, will also collect quite a lot of contamination smaller than 11um. It will actually collect around 50% of particles of 3um size.

By installing the additional finer filtration before the factory filter, you will remove most of the contamination beforehand, and the factory filter will simply have less work to do to provide really clean fuel to your injectors.

Perhaps a better option than using the larger P553207 for your own vehicle's application would be to use our new P551615 77mm diameter 99%@3um fuel filter and water separator which uses the same 3um filter media as the P553207 filters and it also uses the same P560382 head assembly as your current filter. Our first shipment delivery of this new filter is expected to arrive late next month. This way you could do a straight one for one swap over of your existing P550588 filter and it will also accept the same visage bowl that you currently use on the P550588, but if space is tight, you do not have to use the bowl which will save you 50mm in overall length. The flow rate of the new filter is still 114lph and the pressure drop will still be less than 1psi and it has the same dimensions. You may need to replace it more frequently than the P550588 given that it's the same physically sized filter, as it will remove more contaminant from your fuel . I would recommend replacing it at the same service interval as is recommended for your original OEM fitted filter. List price of the new filter is $24.45, and it should be available late December.

Regards

Bruce Evans | Product Manager
Donaldson Australasia Pty Ltd
http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au

-------------------------------------------------

Now obviously, in any dusty outback mining situations where work vehicles are being constantly driven and refueled by drivers who, lets be honest here, dont really give a sh*t, because it's not their car but the boss's afterall, it would certainly make loads of sense to fit first, a 'coarse' filter straight out of the fuel tank to eliminate the 'rocks' coming out of the jerry can with every refill, followed by a finer filter to then get rid of any 'mud' that's left. Another thing to remember, is that the expected service lifespan of any, 'fine' filter, is directly related to it's overall physical size and hence the total available surface area for filtering ie, a physically small filter = small available filtering surface = shorter lifespan before becoming totally clogged, and vice versa, a physically larger filter will read exactly the opposite. So bearing all of this in mind and remembering that filters are indeed 'consumable items' that are not intended to, and don't, last forever, I am now personally inclined to follow Bruce Evans' advice given above, and fit a Quote: "finer filter which is adequately sized for a particular application" before the OEM filter, rather than messing around with fitting a 'small sized' fine filter after it, and thus risking a MAL warranty refusal, should the 'proverbial' ever hit the fan big-time, for my own vehicle's CRD pump or injectors.

For whatever it's worth, that's just my own humble 2 cents worth on the subject of fuel filter setups.

Cheers,
Bill
aka AnOldFart

[Cowboy Dave]

The racor filter that several of us have fitted could not be called small by any means. From memory the factory filter is only 10 microns and the racors are 2 micron. The unknown for me is what sort of damage particles under 10 microns could do to injectors and the like.

I don't profess to have any expertise in these matters at all but I would have thought the only warranty issue an extra filter could cause would be if they somehow put some extra strain onto fuel pumps. Geek has been through a couple of pumps I think but that would be for other reasons. SRB has been running the racor for a while now with no issues as have several others. Mine hasn't been in for long but hasn't missed a beat thus far.

While I'm sure the Donaldson bloke knows what he is talking about, I can't help but wonder if his advice is coloured by what products Donaldson has available for use - do they have a 2 micron filter that would work well after the OEM filter? I don't know.

[macca002]

Possibly coving their arse with a 'what if' scenario and new vehicle warranty?

[brodical]

Sounds good old fart ...and yeh I would be following that advise also......might have to have a chat with mr Bruce Evans myself I think...great info thanks mate...

[viking shippy]

I cannot see in the donaldson explanation other than not upsetting manufacturers and warranty issues,..
why would you want to put a fine filter first..
(what issues we are refining the filtering hence less issues)..
This explanation goes against general filtering principals....he certainly has tried to baffle with a particulate catching explanation ..but forgot to give the explanation of how it works in a post ome filter way....(heaps better)..so I suspect his reasoning is a political and financial...explanation rather than a plain old mechanical explanation....that was/is needed...even though he tried ...

Anyway I found this ...http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/megafilter.htm...
a while ago I decided after reading many posts/sites.....i decided .. To do what marine engineers have been doing for decades and is a marine standard...tank...a water trap..10lm filter...then 3lm filter...then the donk....when I suggested the other way round...to my engineer mate .I got a ...that's bull shit.... Answer...then...what's the point of the second filter then..well he has a point.....

I think those manufactures don't want their product integrated in somebody's else's system....cause their filter won't block up as fast if it's after the ome filter...
yes...It might have other implications with engine lights and more bs warranty bs...(where they have to prove that the filter caused the problem)...also...if you made filters you would want it near the tank were it would catch the multitude of rubbish..and need replacing sooner..

My angle is .the b4 ome filtering is of a monetary/political reasoning.....!...common sense tells me that..if you want efficient screening...like gold miners ....graded screening...from big to small...is the go...

Below is a clip from a American site....link above...

Numerous opinions exist on choosing pre OEM versus post OEM supplemental fuel filter installation location. A pre-OEM location may cause less warranty issues depending on your GM dealer. A pre-OEM location should extend the service interval on the OEM Racor fuel filter, likewise shortening the service interval on the BF7635. In any event, GM's recommended service interval of 15,000 miles should not be exceeded for the OEM fuel filter.

On the other hand, placing a coarser filter (larger micron rating) before a finer filter (smaller micron rating) is a generally accepted filtering principle. Since the BF7635's 2-micron rating appears to be better (a smaller micron rating) compared to the OEM Racor, a post OEM MEGA install follows accepted filtering principles. Servicing the OEM Racor at GM's recommended intervals will extend the service interval on the BF7635.

[viking shippy]

The racor filter that several of us have fitted could not be called small by any means. From memory the factory filter is only 10 microns and the racors are 2 micron. The unknown for me is what sort of damage particles under 10 microns could do to injectors and the like.

I don't profess to have any expertise in these matters at all but I would have thought the only warranty issue an extra filter could cause would be if they somehow put some extra strain onto fuel pumps. Geek has been through a couple of pumps I think but that would be for other reasons. SRB has been running the racor for a while now with no issues as have several others. Mine hasn't been in for long but hasn't missed a beat thus far.

While I'm sure the Donaldson bloke knows what he is talking about, I can't help but wonder if his advice is coloured by what products Donaldson has available for use - do they have a 2 micron filter that would work well after the OEM filter? I don't know.

The Donaldson won't fit in under the bonnet Dave it's huge.....so it makes it useless as a post ome filter..

[biggibbo]

The racor filter that several of us have fitted could not be called small by any means. From memory the factory filter is only 10 microns and the racors are 2 micron. The unknown for me is what sort of damage particles under 10 microns could do to injectors and the like.

I don't profess to have any expertise in these matters at all but I would have thought the only warranty issue an extra filter could cause would be if they somehow put some extra strain onto fuel pumps. Geek has been through a couple of pumps I think but that would be for other reasons. SRB has been running the racor for a while now with no issues as have several others. Mine hasn't been in for long but hasn't missed a beat thus far.

While I'm sure the Donaldson bloke knows what he is talking about, I can't help but wonder if his advice is coloured by what products Donaldson has available for use - do they have a 2 micron filter that would work well after the OEM filter? I don't know.

The Donaldson won't fit in under the bonnet Dave it's huge.....so it makes it useless as a post ome filter..

Maybe thats the real explanation behind the logic.

Having worked on water filtration sysyems, placing a fine filter prior to a coarse filter is just a waste of a filter. In effect the coarse filter (OEM) will effectively be doing nothing as most particulates larger than 3um have been captured.

With our filtration system we always start coarse and then work our way to fine 4 seperate filter) and then use a specfic filter at the end to remove any crypto/scale etc.

[Cowboy Dave]

Bigger than the Racor Parker number? That would be huge.

[viking shippy]

Yep long twice as long

[Tony]

I just speak from life experiences, we too did try and fit the finer filters as primary for the mine fleets and gave up on the idea with so many issues so moved them secondary. (I'm a diesel fitter by trade)

As much as the attached email is some what factual, it is not quite true a good quality filter fitted secondary will void your warranty. I think more so some vehicles are perhaps prone to showing frozen fuel light codes as a result of more friction. (Friction is not restriction)

The risk of contamination to a fuel system (with a secondary filter) is no different than opening the system to atmosphere whilst changing the OEM filter.

If we want to get into filter efficiency debate, I can produce some data that may shock some of you. A filter ratted at a given micron (at certain flow rate) will not stop 100% of impurities at the given micron as they also will stop a small percentage that's smaller than ratted micron.
Also, the common rails return up to 80% fuel back to the tank so there is a very good chance some of the contaminates dont make it into the hi pressure side of the fuel system.

Fit the finer filter as a primary (as most manufacturers recommend) by all means, but get used to changing it more often as no longer a safe guard from OEM. Is now a safe guard for OEM in effect. Will survive OK if a monster unit, but most of us wont want such a thing under our vehicle.

Have a look at the red necks in the states who fuel up the trucks and run stupid rail pressures, after blowing ends off injectors they very quickly worked out slowing the smaller particles via secondary filtration somewhat extended the life or their fuel systems as we are doing here.

Just my 2 cents as we need a balance of factual information in the public eyes on this forum.

Regards,
Tony

[brodical]

Tony can you plz elaborate for us the problems you encountered whilst using the finer primary filter which caused you to go the other way?? Cheers BRODIE

[Tony]

In short, premature filter changes were required before service intervals and manufacturers do not warrant the damn thing any more where ever its fitted.

For those in the know of the common rail diesels, they do a very fine job of polishing the fuel. As per my comment above, the supply pump runs at 100% duty and the hi pressure system only sips what it needs in plain English.

What you may find is our oem fuel filter media is composed of plastic impregnated paper with millions of tiny punched holes in it. Microscopically speaking, it functions as a colander as in “cooking pasta”.

Dirt in the fuel, viewed microscopically, is variously sized gravel.

The filters' micron rating is nominal and certainly not exact. In reality, many of the holes are partially plugged by debris in a very short time, leaving a matrix of smaller holes than we started with.

So in other words,
your 10 micron primary filter turns into a much finer filter almost immediately. The job of
the secondary filter is to remove most of the particles of a size that could damage the fuel injection components.

Now where does using a 2um filter as a primary fit in the above? It clearly doesn't as will reduce to less than 2um is a matter of hours at times.

Ask any marine engineers who very quickly got sick of changing 2um primary filters in a hot humid engine bay. They very quickly swapped 2um to secondary so 10um OEM (Often 30um) could do its job, and that is start at a 10um (Or larger) then slowly reduce to well under the ratted micron.
In saying filters do this, they also allow a small percentage of larger particles through.


Another big issue with using a finer primary is, many find the coarser secondary may never seem to need changing as "comes for the ride" and then they eventually soften and release contamination into the fuel system.

Hope this helps,
regards, Tony

[viking shippy]

Thanks tony for the mercanical explanation
I as a tradesman I am
very sceptical of sales people and there explanations on things..
Thanks again for the explanation from the coal face so to speek...

[Homer]

It's all a bit of a no brainer really. With a 2um filter in front, there would be nothing for the oem filter to filter and conversely the 2um filter would block regularly or prematurely.

I can't believe someone even tried to justify doing it the other way round

[viking shippy]

I can't believe someone even tried to justify doing it the other way round

And had some eager followers. ......but that's ok....that's what this forum is about...
And I applaud guys that have different ideas and have the balls to post them up..
This is how we learn and refine ideas... sharing different views and refining ideas with collaboration of those in the know ...sharing those first hand experiences-here... hopefully without to much ridicule and judgment...when somebody has a different point of view...and then is wise enough ..when overwhelmed with the facts that they can admit that they might have the wrong information....lol. Including yours truly...

post script and as old fart states wants to keep his warranty intact and not ruffle mits feathers..for other reasons other than the best case scenario .....I love this forum...

[AnOldFart]

Hi Tony, in order to avoid any possible confusion arising for readers of this thread I would like to right now unequivocally state here that I absolutely DO NOT DISAGREE AT ALL, with a single thing that you have written on this subject of fuel filtration. Your suggestion of placing a fine secondary filter after, the coarser OEM filter is absolutely certain to work as intended. I am speaking here, purely from the point of view of my own particular 'still under warranty' vehicle, where the free space available to me to fit a physically 'larger' filter unit on my MN Cab Chassis Ute is not a problem at all, and so I have personally, chosen instead to follow the recommendation of Bruce Evans from Donaldson Australia and go with installing an appropriately larger sized, 'fine' filter before the OEM. As you correctly said, this now effectively renders my OEM filter redundant but I am indeed 'happier' to effectively provide it with a 'free ride' rather than to risk providing MAL with any excuse at all, to knock me back in the event of any possible future warranty claim arising with my vehicle's injection system, because I have 'tinkered' with their 'standard' OEM fuel plumbing under the bonnet. Basically all that I am describing here is just another way to arrive at the exact same destination, but via an alternative route. For owners of other types of Triton vehicles who don't have the same amount of free space available to them in which to mount a physically large filter then they obviously, have to decide just which approach makes better sense to them in their own particular circumstances.

Best Regards,
Bill
aka AnOldFart

[brodical]

What was the cost old fart?? As I think I'll go the same way....