Common rail assembly

[jcord]

Hi all,

Having bit of a trouble with my 2009 3,2 Triton and it is in a workshop getting fixed. Can someone explain what can go wrong with a common rail? My mechanic wrote to me following.

"A Common rail is priced at approximately $1000 plus the labour to remove & refit which is a big job as the intake manifold & EGR have to be removed to do this."

To my mind it is just a tube with few input and output holes in it.

Thanks Mika

[hvac guy]

How did he come to the conclusion that the rail is faulty.

[aids84]

The rail comes as an assembly with the pressure sensor and relief valve which explains the price. Don't get many problems with them, why is your mechanic wanting to change it?

[Tony]

I'm with hvac on this one, not too much can go wrong with the actual rail and to my knowledge there has been no failures unless some monkey has stuffed one of the threads or seats where the pipes fit on.

If it just the pressure limiter gone, it can be replaced as a there are a few other options floating around these days.

I'd be asking for more information. Do they mean injectors or some other component?

Out of interest, what were the symptoms of fault anyway?

[jcord]

Thanks for looking. I'll write a quick summary what has happened so far. Writing in English is not my strong point - please forgive me.

31.1 Triton goes in because fault code P0093 and suspect that diesel gets in to motor oil. (oil level rising)
7.2 call from service that they have done some tests been driving around and they think injectors needs to be replaced. Trusted them and gave them good to go.
13.2 call to get fixed car back. Got the car back and it felt bit funny. Did not think much of it blaming "new feeling after service" Car did not travel too much following days because I'm car pooling to work with my friend.
26.2 Normal driving around and the engine light comes on again P0093.
27.2 car goes back to the workshop again.
7.3 they been driving my car high and low all week and can't fault it . Meanwhile I've done some research and ask them that have they checked the suction control valve? Reply was that "Can't be faulty been so new" so they return car to me. Came back home from work and had a quick drive on my street. Really lazy, blowing black smoke and shuttering and I wondered how they managed to drive that car back to my place.
8.3 Morning drive to servo to fill my empty tank. Straight after the fill up code p0089 comes on. Clearing the code with scangauge and heading home. Om my way to home p0093 comes on and I'm limping home. By the time I at home both codes keep coming on P0093 and p0089. Eventually can't clear them as they pop up straight away.
11.3 Car goes back in. They change the SCV witch clears the P0089 code and now they think common rail need to be replaced next and with the cost above because they cant get rid of P0093 code. Car is still there and waits for my instructions. This is like my worst nightmare don't really know what to do.

Thanks again for listening -Mika

[Amaroo]

Hey Mika are you using a dealer service centre or independent mechanic?

[Cowboy Dave]

So P0089 is SCV stuck and P0093 is when there is a significant difference between the fuel rail pressure commanded and what's actually occurring - based on a couple of quick searches here for others who've had those codes.

Whoever you're using I wouldn't be too confident if they were saying that a SCV on a 2009 model couldn't fail because it was so new. There have been a lot of SCV failures over time on both the 3.2 and the 2.5.

I'm not getting why they'd be changing injectors to be honest. Not that I have a mechanical bone in my body but again to me that sounds like they got the diagnosis wrong and changed the wrong bits.

If you're actually getting diesel into your sump you should not be driving it. You will cook the whole thing and then you'll be really stuffed.

If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on them having put the injectors in and stuffing a seal or a gasket somewhere when they did it.

Have you used these mechanics before? I'd definitely be wanting a second opinion if it was me. I'd also be asking for the old injectors back (probably too late for this now) so you could get them checked out.

[Tony]

Injectors wont always drop fuel into the sump and if do has to be soak down. More likely a leaking fuel pipe.

The P093 code is like a sudden drop in fuel pressure and has to be pretty major to trigger the CEL. (It's not a small leak) They could be correct its the rail assembly as the pressure limiter valve fitted to the front can give out and drop fuel pressure suddenly.
Before you spend a fortune on a fuel rail shoot me a PM.


There are a few other little things to look out for as well... Air leaks around fuel lines and fittings, the hidden screen filter on fuel pump, blocked pick up at tank end, blocked vent at tank and lastly as I assume they have checked, is excessive injector leak off.

[snowman]

Thanks for looking. I'll write a quick summary what has happened so far. Writing in English is not my strong point - please forgive me.

31.1 Triton goes in because fault code P0093 and suspect that diesel gets in to motor oil. (oil level rising)
7.2 call from service that they have done some tests been driving around and they think injectors needs to be replaced. Trusted them and gave them good to go.
13.2 call to get fixed car back. Got the car back and it felt bit funny. Did not think much of it blaming "new feeling after service" Car did not travel too much following days because I'm car pooling to work with my friend.
26.2 Normal driving around and the engine light comes on again P0093.
27.2 car goes back to the workshop again.
7.3 they been driving my car high and low all week and can't fault it . Meanwhile I've done some research and ask them that have they checked the suction control valve? Reply was that "Can't be faulty been so new" so they return car to me. Came back home from work and had a quick drive on my street. Really lazy, blowing black smoke and shuttering and I wondered how they managed to drive that car back to my place.
8.3 Morning drive to servo to fill my empty tank. Straight after the fill up code p0089 comes on. Clearing the code with scangauge and heading home. Om my way to home p0093 comes on and I'm limping home. By the time I at home both codes keep coming on P0093 and p0089. Eventually can't clear them as they pop up straight away.
11.3 Car goes back in. They change the SCV witch clears the P0089 code and now they think common rail need to be replaced next and with the cost above because they cant get rid of P0093 code. Car is still there and waits for my instructions. This is like my worst nightmare don't really know what to do.

Thanks again for listening -Mika

how long before the above happened was the car serviced?

and did they do a tappet adjustment as part of that service?

[jcord]

Amaroo, car is at independent workshop.

Snowman, last service was done at 75000 do not know if the tappets are on that service car has done about 82000 now

thanks everyone! Keep them ideas coming I need all the help I can get

Cheers Mika

[jcord]

Hi,

Still sorting this out. Workshop wants to change the rail. Apparently they had a test rail on the car and no fault codes so far. Only thing I'm still wondering is that why they didn't change it first? Reading Tritons service manual after all lists following parts with p0093 code and diagnosis procedure. On that flowchart couldn't find the step for injectors but.

*Fuel leakage or fuel line blocked
*Failed injector
*Failed suction control valve
*Failed rail pressure sensor
*Failed engine-ECU

DIAGNOSIS PROCEDURE

STEP 1. M.U.T.-III diagnosis code

Q. Is any other diagnosis code than P0093 output?
Inspection chart for diagnosis codes (Refer to ).

YES Go to Step 2 .

STEP 2. Detection of fuel line leakage

Check whether fuel is leaking from a high-pressure fuel line.


Q. Is the check result normal?
Go to Step 3 .

Replace the parts of an abnormal location.


STEP 3. Release the air from the fuel line.



After releasing the air from the fuel line, continue idle operation for about five minutes and recheck for abnormal symptoms.


Q. Does trouble symptom persist?
Replace the engine-ECU. When the engine-ECU is replaced, write the chassis number (Refer to GROUP 00 - How to Perform Chassis Number Writing ). After replacing the engine-ECU, register the injector identification code and learn fuel injection. (Refer to GROUP 00 - Precautions Before Service - What The Common Rail Engine Learns ).

Go to Step 4 .


STEP 4. Replace the common rail assembly and fuel injection tubes.



After replacing the common rail assembly and fuel injection tubes, re-check the trouble symptoms.


Q. Does trouble symptom persist?
Replace the engine-ECU. When the engine-ECU is replaced, write the chassis number (Refer to GROUP 00 - How to Perform Chassis Number Writing ). After replacing the engine-ECU, register the injector identification code and learn fuel injection. (Refer to GROUP 00 - Precautions Before Service - What The Common Rail Engine Learns ).

The check is end.

How about diesel getting in the oil? How you can get diesel inside of the engine? I think that I gained about 800ml over 4000 kilometers of driving.

Thanks Mika

[hvac guy]

Did they re use your pressure limiter valve and rail pressure sensor on the test rail ?

[jcord]

hvac,

Ill ask that.

"EDIT"

I think someone said that the rail comes with them on it and you can't change them. Am I wrong?
"EDIT 2"

Reply from them earlier

"We believe one of the sensors on the end of the rail is faulty giving a false reading in relation to fuel pressure causing the engine light to come on! These sensors are available as part of the rail only!"

Thanks Mika

[hvac guy]

The pressure limiter is replaceable have u sent tony a msg he might have some spares to sell.

[hvac guy]

I'll do some checking with my contacts
Mn or ml

[hvac guy]

[jcord]

Hvac,

Ml she is.

[Tony]

The complete rail assembly is only available through Denso, Mitsubishi etc.

However there are some after market and refurbished rail pressure limiter valves floating around.

If your paying for all that, make sure you get the old fuel rail and fuel pipes back as nothing will be wrong with them. Just needed an after market pressure limiter.

I suspect the original issue may have been a leaky fuel pipe at injector with oil rising since now subsided.
The rail limiters can give out when MUT3 ramps pressure while checking for leaks. Especially if a rail pressure type chip is fitted at the time. I've seen this happen more than once.

[jcord]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it would make sense what hvac is saying. Take the old rail pressure sensor and pressure limiter.Test them against new ones. If the old ones gives the code and new ones doesn't then the problem is solved without a doubt.

I'm worried about the wording here. Them saying "We believe one of the sensors on the end of the rail is faulty" To me it sounds like "well just chuck this rail in this time and see how we go"

[jcord]

Hi all,

Can someone please tell me how to read these test results. Do they make any sense? Date of test?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/166 ... edited.pdf

Thanks, Mika

[jcord]

Also reply from them today when asked my injectors back Also asked then if they tested old pressure sensor against the new one. Test data on previous post.

"Your injectors are on an exchange basis and have been returned to the OEM - Denso! A detailed test report and summary on your injector results are attached! The sensors on the rail are not testable or available to change, the only test that can be done is what we have done by replacing the rail with our test rail (a new one) then road test the vehicle to see if the fault occurs!"

Does all this mean that you can't have new injectors (as they told me) but exchange ones. Doesn't sound right to me.

Thanks again for watching.

[Froggy]

New injectors are very expensive.
Reconditioned ones are the norm.
Injectors are individually replaceable so I hope they haven't changed all 4 because 1 is playing up. Though you do say they've given you a report...
Seems as if at this stage, your going to have to cut your losses. The cost involved in getting them to take it all apart again to refit an aftermarket rail limiter etc - in the hope it fixes what they've already fixed - might be higher than paying for the new rail they've fitted.

[jcord]

New injectors are very expensive.
Reconditioned ones are the norm.
Injectors are individually replaceable so I hope they haven't changed all 4 because 1 is playing up. Though you do say they've given you a report...
Seems as if at this stage, your going to have to cut your losses. The cost involved in getting them to take it all apart again to refit an aftermarket rail limiter etc - in the hope it fixes what they've already fixed - might be higher than paying for the new rail they've fitted.

did you see my post with pdf test result?

[Froggy]

did you see my post with pdf test result?

All Japanese to me...

[hvac guy]

ok still waiting on one other guy who recons he can get just the sensor i,m not hopefull on this as my good friend in the trade has said u can only buy the rail and sensor together as they are calibrated as a unit. but in saying that i have seen them on ebay (sensor only) for 80 bucks or so US dollars. Did this thing get water in the fuel?

the pressure limiter will be dumping as the sensor is not reading true ie sensor is saying 5000psi but it is really 20000psi as the ecu is trying to adjust it. same when the mut3 is connected.

if u need the car on the road and they warrant their work and the test rail works well its a no brainer
my only gripe is they cant prove that the sensor is out via testing. how hard can it be really all they need to do is put pressure on the sensor and go through the range of the sensor and measure the voltage output to the scale as per the specs.