Fuel rail "Chip" or ECU Tune? Pros & cons?

[shortSteve]

Ok, so doing a bit (lot) of reading, a lot of searching, and having previously had a chip fitted to my car, wondering of the direct benefits/negatives to a ECU retune in direct comparison?
They are about the same price for name brand stuff, Chip is customisable a lot simpler than ecu tune, but ecu tune can alter other engine parameters like egr system functioning. Search seems to show benefits of a tune or chip, but nothing comparing the two?
While I was happy with the chip type arrangement, seemed a little simplistic just adding fuel/duration/boost, and while performance increased, general engine behaviour remained the same (eg: nothing below 1600-1800rpm, then went like a bullet). Will an ecu tune alter the "power curve" and fill in some of that low down hole, or is it engine design limitations that have the laggy off-idle response?
For a bit further background, used to tow a 1400kg hard floor offroad camper, and was fine once above 20km/hr, but any stationary take offs or slow manoeuvres were absolutely painfull and borderline clutch abuse lol. Will an ecu tune make this better than the chip?

Thoughts comments and comparisons welcome

[Hardcoretriton]

Don't waste your time and money on a chip they are primative in comparison to a retune. Look at my post in the newbie section standard torque atw 264nm, chip 370nm, custom tune 481nm and peak torque is available at 2400rpm.

[shortSteve]

Don't waste your time and money on a chip they are primative in comparison to a retune. Look at my post in the newbie section standard torque atw 264nm, chip 370nm, custom tune 481nm and peak torque is available at 2400rpm.

Cheers. Just the info I'm chasing.
What's the torque like at 1400rpm in comparison?

[al coholic]

Don't waste your time and money on a chip they are primative in comparison to a retune.

That really depends on whether you are just buying an off the shelf chip and just plugging it in or tuning your chip and performing the other associated mods to get the most out of it

[Hardcoretriton]

Im curious how do you tune a chip? As they're all basically glorified variable resistors that increase rail pressure, they can't modify any torque tables, boost control tables and can't properly adjust injector timing/duration. Back in the 90's before ecu programing became common in petrol cars there were piggy back computers like the unichip that did a similar thing. The biggest drawback with diesel chips is that by ramping up rail pressure you put undue stress on the pump, rail and injectors as opposed to reprogramming which allows you to accurately advance/retard injector timing and duration without placing unnecessary stress on other components.

[Cowboy Dave]

I'm curious as to whether you're here to advertise? Not all chips are as basic as you suggest, just as not all tunes are as amazing as yours seems to be.

[srb]

Not all chips are just 'glorified resistors'
Some chips have tuning software that allow the tuner to take control of hundreds of tune parameters. Some of these chips have reasonably powerful processors allowing a wide range of custom tuning including boost control on vgt setups.

Some people actually prefer these chip setups over ecu tuning as can be easily removed and put back to standard. Also allows dual mapping for separate tunes to be switched on the fly if required.

I'm not saying it's better than ecu tuning... it's just more to some chips than you think.

Anyway there are people on here that know more about this stuff than me so I'll let them chime in if they want. Heaps of tuning info in the platinum area too.
Oh and welcome to the forum .. Looking forward to seeing how far you push the Triton... But get ready for a new clutch and then possibly a gearbox. All part of it though.

[shortSteve]

So having had the chip it chip, which ones are better able to adjust more than just rail pressure or boost?
Finding this quite hard to get my head around. It's not more power or torque I'm chasing, just filling in the low down hole?

[Hardcoretriton]

I'm curious as to whether you're here to advertise? Not all chips are as basic as you suggest, just as not all tunes are as amazing as yours seems to be.

I take offense to such a ridiculous remark, im not here to advertise at all.I thought this was a forum for enthusiasts. Evidently I was wrong.As for chips being more advanced they all modify input/output signals (they fool the ecu) thats it! Some just come with fancy wrapping. Anyway thanks for the comments.

[srb]

Hay settle petal, nobody is trying to offend you or say chips are more advanced than ecu tuning? And don't be too quick to bag out all chips until you've seen what some members have done. If anything your the one coming on here offending us.

Just take the time to explore this forum and you'll see some interesting performance mods to these great little engines. We're also interested in hearing more about your mod's too.

[L200Shogun]

What is a "chip"? Different things to different people.

There are fully programmable piggyback computers. eg UniChip
There are others that are programmable and control a few variables. Digital and analogue versions also.
Then pre programmed "boxes" that control a few variables. eg DP Chip
Other quality chips
Various lesser "chips"

Then fuel rail pressure (increase) smoke boxes. $10 worth of parts and DIY if you have the skill. Or a few hundred in a nice Black Box (and fancy advertising).

The best option is a ECU remap $1500 by a good tuner. Next would be a Unichip $1500? (or similar) plus a custom tune $1500?

[snowman]

I am reluctant to enter this discussion to be honest because it is like a lot of other 'us' vs 'them' debates. So here are some random comments from someone who has both options on two cars (although i did originally run a chip on the ML before going ECU tune).

Firstly if you are talking ECU tune you wont get one for less than $1500 i expect. So lets leave $200 chips out of this because, well, it is a bit of a stupid comparison to be honest. I will add a couple of points from my perspective though.

I run an MRT ECUtek tune on my ML and a Chip-it chip (rail pressure only) on my MN.

I cannot get ANY money back on the ECU remap. It is ECU specific so you cant keep it for your next car or sell it second hand once the car is sold.

I had an issue with my ML with too high EGT temps. The only solution was to reduce fuel because there are limits on allowable boost pressure from via the ECU (i recall it might be about 21 or so PSI will stand to be corrected - ML remember). This therefore removed power so my original dyno results are therefore not relevant anymore.

For my MN i run a mild tune that does not effect top end power because it is my wife's daily driver. I am not aware what the current price of a 'chip-it' chip is at the moment (maybe closer to $1000 than $1500 ) but the tune runs no additional top end but provides better power at low end to make the car more driveable, which it does successfully. That said it is being used in a very conservative map and could potentially produce far more power although with rail chips (only) you are stressing your pump when you go for the bigger pressures - no doubt. It would not be hard to adjust for a little top end as well but i want reliability (this includes clutches!! ) So if you want to go mild more than wild and dollars are a big deal probably a decent chip (with some resale) is for you.

That said for the $1500 odd dollar range you could entertain a chip that does both rail pressure and injector duration (Dom 3 - not sure of availability though ). This provides ultimate tune ability from a chip.

With chip 'clamping' you can run more air than an ECU remap on an ML. (not sure about MN). So if you have an ML and want to get serious you are looking at this option over an ECU tune.

From what i can gather the DP type Chips (or injector chips - which effect duration more than pressure) are fairly conservative. so they have their place but i would expect (i have not owned a DP chip) at around the same money the ECU tune is probably a better option.

In either case both a chip or ECU tune need to have consideration by the tuner for what you want and be set up. To many people just expect to buy a chip and plug it in and just have the best of all worlds. On my MN i had all sorts of limp modes (which is a big deal for me as it is the wife's daily driver with kids in it). It turned out after obviously blaming the chip and loom that it was a dodgy MAP sensor that was replaced under warranty, so clearly not a Chip related issue. Although i expect if there are any underlying issues with your OEM equipment the add on chips can flesh those things out and make them seem to be chip related.

I am moving from my ECUTek tune on the ML to a good chip for the only reason than i can use more air than the ECUTek tune and hence more power (with lower EGT temps). That said my EcuTek tune has been on for well over 100,000 klms and it has made the car more drive able than the original 'chip' i had on it originally and i certainly have not regretted owning it. Same peak power from memory but the chip was peakier than the remap which gave a flatter torque curve.

There are even difference in ML vs MN for what each can do or the limitations.

So in summary for me (for MN) i wanted to remove some lag in the MN, without huge cost and i know when i sell the car i'll probably get half my money back on the chip or move it to the next car if compatible. After my initial MAP problems the car drive much better at lower RPM and so it has been a great solution for me. So a $1500 remap isn't on the cards.

For my ML (now at 7 years old and well over capitalised on) i have decided to keep it as long as it runs and will move to much more air and fuel. Clearly i am lucky to know Tony well and although not commenced yet, it WON'T be just a plug and away i go affair. If you are looking at wanting fairly big power gains you need to have someone with half a brain do the work.

Also if going for decent gains an EGT gauge is mandatory no matter what path you take. I was a bit naive that my ECUTek tune was all good until i installed my EGT gauge and got a shock on a big long hill. Luckily for me i had not towed etc as i could have done damage.

[snowman]

I'm curious as to whether you're here to advertise? Not all chips are as basic as you suggest, just as not all tunes are as amazing as yours seems to be.

I take offense to such a ridiculous remark, im not here to advertise at all.I thought this was a forum for enthusiasts. Evidently I was wrong.As for chips being more advanced they all modify input/output signals (they fool the ecu) thats it! Some just come with fancy wrapping. Anyway thanks for the comments.

i am staying out of the emotive commentary from both sides but i can assure you your comment on chips 'just being wrapped differently' is completely false.

chips come in various types and quality. some adjust injector duration, some rail pressures and with the new Dom 3 it does both. Some people on this forum have even run two separate chips simultaneously.

[shortSteve]

Thanks snowman , my (limited) experience with the chip was great overall power and driveability, but light throttle cruising had temps up in the mid to high 500's, and when towing would just keep tripping the "over temp" failsafe I had set at 600 degrees. Again, I have seen these temps on std tune, but it just comes up real quick on light throttle, and booting it to get more boost ain't always possible, and "fanning" the accelerator to generate boost got tiresome real quick. Add in the still shocking low rev power and a fuel rail plug that played up and I ended up taking it out (after fixing the plug issue) for lower egt's. I don't have access to a tuner or dyno regularly, and while the initial cost of a tune is higher (not much imho than a good quality chip), to have it all set up how I want seems to be the best option. Obvious concerns over towing and other issues causing high egt's, possible erase of tune by dealers and possible fuel system problems (I have a billet rail limiter, so all problems will be upstream of this I guess?) mean I am very cautious about throwing good money away on something not transferable or saleable, so was hoping a few had done the comparison before me and I could learn from their knowledge/mistakes

sS

[shortSteve]

It's done
Got the Triton back from it's ecu retune and dyno runs, with 2 tunes available for me to test out. Both are aimed at reducing low rev turbo lag and throttle delay brought on by latest ecu reflash from MMA, so are on the conservative side at my request. SO, my instructions for the tune were to improve throttle response, improve turbo spool up in lower revs and make a nice linear power increase, not huge top end or laggy performance.
Now, as a comparision, I used to run tune 5 on the Chip-It chip, a basic starting point for a freer flowing air intake (snorkel and K & N filter) and exhaust (Beaudesert 2.75 full system with sports cat and sports muffler). I found the chip power came on a little bit stronger after feeling flatter below 1800rpm, and really ramped up from 2-3000rpm, as revs increased EGT temps stabilised at mid 500's under full throttle, but light cruising or towing around 100 km/hr would see light throttle temps get up close to 600 degrees.
By comparison on standard tune, light throttle cruising would be in low to mid 400's, but heavy sustained full throttle, especially as revs rise would easily exceed 650 degrees, only my mechanical sympathy and caution backing off preventing even further climbing temps.
So, on to the new ecu tune, seat of the pants feeling makes low down response much better, massively reduced throttle delay being the first noticeable improvement. Next, it will pull from 1200rpm in lower gears (1,2 and 3), albeit a little rough (would not even accelerate with chip or std tune below 1500-1600rpm), with real urge from 1400rpm. Huge improvement. It continues to pull at a steadily increasing rate all the way to about 3000rpm, were it flattens off, still pulling hard but not in increasing vigour. Of note, the rate of increase form 2000-3500rpm feels very similar to the chip power outputs, so on this conservative tune I would estimate peak torque/power values to be fairly similar. ECU map is definitely more linear, less "flat spot then sudden rush" that the chip brought on. And now for the good bit, egt's are around the same as std tune (low to mid 400's) on light throttle highway, and stay lower under full load (much like the chip tune did) to a peak of mid to high 500's on a LONG 4 gear flat out climb. They may have risen a little further, but in all honesty I was already moving way faster than I should have been so don't think these temps will be encountered regularly. All this is on the "higher" of the 2 mild tunes, will only test out the lower tune if when towing the caravan or work trailer temps seem a little high, but early indications are that we will be safe staying with this tune .
I haven't mentioned dyno numbers, because all they relate to is what you already had, and not what any one else does, but for those wanting increase percentages, based on std 131kw/400nm at the fly, I have 153kw @ 3737rpm and 499nm @ 2089rpm. Or around a 25% increase in peak values, but much higher across the lower ranges. The lower tune still put out 134kw @ 3884rpm and 421nm @ 2129rpm, very conservative but still a big increase in the 1400-1800rpm, before ramping up similar to a std tune and flattening off 2400-3500rpm (torque), while kw increase from 1800rpm to around 3500rpm before peaking. Peak boost has gone from 21psi to 22.5psi with the ecu tune, unfortunately I don't have peak boost for the chip, but will try to get some info in the next few weeks.
I will continue the feedback as I tow a bit more, and hope some of the comparisons can be used by others in determining what's best for their trucks and needs.

sS

[Crash486]

Thanks for your info sS, a good read. I'd do the same really. Keep the updates coming.

[Hicksie]

Hi Steve, who did you get to do the tune & price if you dont mind telling me pls?

[shortSteve]

Hi Steve, who did you get to do the tune & price if you dont mind telling me pls?

I'm over in Perth, had it done at United Fuel Injection in Redcliffe. As I have had prior dealings with them I got a good price, but I believe retail is around $1500, possibly with some options for how you would like the tune set out. Also in Perth is Ecuwest, have heard good things from them also, but not much Triton related background.

Will be posting an update towards the end of next week with a fuel economy comparison after doing a few thousand km's.

[triton_guru]

Has anyone looked at the legal matter involved with both? My main reason for wanting a chip is so I can unplug it when i go over the pits, I made a phone call to regency park in Adelaide (pits for defects) as I'm getting my car engineered when I get back from the UK and he gave me the heads up that if they feel inclined they can run some software through the ecu to see whether it has been modified or rewritten as the ecu remap must prove that it doesn't increase the power by a certain amount but also and most importantly it doesn't produce more emissions:\. I know there's going to be alot of people kicking off that's its a load of rubbish but say what you like I love the idea of a ecu remap but in this current climate with defects through the roof I will be going back to the chip idea just so I can unplug it.

Now begin the rant that they are all legal etc I'm just going off what he said

[shortSteve]

Has anyone looked at the legal matter involved with both? My main reason for wanting a chip is so I can unplug it when i go over the pits, I made a phone call to regency park in Adelaide (pits for defects) as I'm getting my car engineered when I get back from the UK and he gave me the heads up that if they feel inclined they can run some software through the ecu to see whether it has been modified or rewritten as the ecu remap must prove that it doesn't increase the power by a certain amount but also and most importantly it doesn't produce more emissions:\. I know there's going to be alot of people kicking off that's its a load of rubbish but say what you like I love the idea of a ecu remap but in this current climate with defects through the roof I will be going back to the chip idea just so I can unplug it.

Now begin the rant that they are all legal etc I'm just going off what he said

Yeah, as we don't have annual rwc over here I went with the opposite thought, if puuled over by traffic enforcement they cannot see anything out of the ordinary do no reason to defect the car, whereas intercepting plugs may be spotted more easily by a keen eye. Saying that, I am sure there are other things that would get picked on before an ecu reflash.
Different story if roadworthy certificates are required though.

sS

[shortSteve]

Ok, as an average pre- ecu tune, Triton would get around 11-11.3L/100km's over the last 15000km's (and since the coolant reflash thingo), with a best of 10.8L/100km. All this is with the vehicle at the same weight and similar driving (50% highway, 50% suburbia/peakhour), and no differences made in vehicle setup or accessories. First tank to refil was around 10.8L/100km, but in fairness this involved me "exploring" the new found performance a fair bit, next fil was 10.5L/100km but I did have a little bit of towing in that.
Current tank is just under 800km and only just dropped under half ful (usually 650km to indicated half tank, or around 70-75Lish) so based on that getting down close to 10's! Going to get serviced tomorrow then won't see it for 2 days, so don't know how accurate next fill will be, but looking very impressive given how much more driveable it is. Why don't they come like this from the factory....

edit:, filled up on way home from service, 856.4 km, 87.09L full to the brim. 10.17L/100km. Pretty impressed with that!

sS

[woodro_sle]

Can anyone recomend someone to to tune my ML in Melbourne?

[mIwoo]

I'd like to be able to compare the new MKIII Dominator with exhaust vs a ecutek tune..... can anyone help.... just for shits and giggles like... all my cash is invested in my wedding in october

[snowman]

I'd like to be able to compare the new MKIII Dominator with exhaust vs a ecutek tune..... can anyone help.... just for shits and giggles like... all my cash is invested in my wedding in october

MN

I'll be able to tell you for an ML in the not too distant future........

FWIW the dealer wiped my ECUtek tune at a recent service and i can tell you i massively miss the tune. The difference in the low end (ML 3.2) is huge and makes the 'drivability' far less enjoyable.

You sort of get used to the power and you think it isn't going too well until the tune gets wiped and you feel like you are going backwards...............

[Brocko86]

I'd like to be able to compare the new MKIII Dominator with exhaust vs a ecutek tune..... can anyone help.... just for shits and giggles like... all my cash is invested in my wedding in october

MN

I'll be able to tell you for an ML in the not too distant future........

FWIW the dealer wiped my ECUtek tune at a recent service and i can tell you i massively miss the tune. The difference in the low end (ML 3.2) is huge and makes the 'drivability' far less enjoyable.

You sort of get used to the power and you think it isn't going too well until the tune gets wiped and you feel like you are going backwards...............

How did you go with the MKIII chip snowman? How does it compare to the ecu tune?