Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

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Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby dsp26 on Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:40 am

Hi all,

I have purchase a 2nd hand dominator3. Have been chasing a reliable increase in boost for a long time, and have recently had my ecu tune reverted to stock and complete tillix setup removed because i couldnt bypass the P1298 overboost limp.

Have spent a bit of time researching and playing with different tune levels and injector adjustment, according to a lot of other forums (non-triton) and some here, i'm supposed to see an increase in boost from Tune6 onwards.

I've set it to Tune7 now and still only see 20psi from both mechanical boost gauge and obd2 (maybe upto 1psi variance). I'm hesitant to move the tune up further as i've already had a few issues with fuel leaks and pump>rail pipe busting.

Was wondering if anyone whose got one knows the rough settings of each tune, especially boost? Ideally would like Tune5/6 with 26psi+ boost if there is a program that would allow me to edit the tune files or if anyone knows the hex address for the boost/map? Or if anyone already has such a custom tune file?

No need to worry about my mods, i have all the goods that can handle plenty of boost. Really just need a better way to do it.

Alternatively, would like to know if anyone has used a fuel cut defender to clamp map voltage or just upgraded map sensor.

Cheers
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Re: Chiptuning Dominator 3 settings

Postby srb on Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:51 pm

Did you try contacting Chiptuning? They would still have the software I'm sure.

Also, I'm interested to know if or how you think your Dom3 chip solved your overboost limp?
As far as I know there's a few causes that can trigger that limp, sometimes it can be a combination of a 3" zorst, latency of the electronic boost solenoid and or faulty vgt actuator.

If you're still having overboost limps, do you have a 3" exhaust by any chance? If you do and you've already tried Tillix valve ect, then it could just be the 3" exhaust that is the cause. If not, then I'd be looking at the vgt actuator.

Mine can still throw an overboost limp if I try hard enough, but I know how to avoid it by simply blipping my throttle for a split second on hard runs up hills or over taking ect. I've been running a 3" exhaust for 10years now but soon swapping out for a smaller one due to this one falling apart.

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Re: Chiptuning Dominator 3 settings

Postby dsp26 on Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:34 pm

I did send them a message via their website contact form last september and no response.

As for the overboost limp, the tillix valve 100% did solve it when used "properly". Except I used it to increase boost to 26psi instead of clamping it to 20psi as i had a rich tune (black smoke) i didnt want to go to waste

Given the exact definition of P1298 is exceeding target boost pressure by 6.7kpa/0.97psi plus the fact the obd2 manifold pressure (single byte ecu address for 255/FF in kPa) includes barometric which is a moving target, its possible to trigger the limp even on partial throttle which ive done towing my jetski up a hill whilst on cruise control, plus i find it dangerous to leave for the mrs to drive as she would panic.

That aside, im more interested in running 26-30psi boost, and i was under the impression the dom3 can adjust boost via map sensor voltage clamping so that the above overboost isnt triggered. Some threads and forums claim tune6 and up was where boost is also increased. I checked out all 15 tune files today in a text editor and they are all fuel maps at 100rpm increments.

My mech boost gauge also shows same boost as obd2 even at tune7.

I was hoping there would be more dom3 users in triton/challenger groups but looks non-existent, and only a few on pajero forums.

The end goal is 200hp/600nm+ but wanted to see if i could before going +30 on injectors and switching to a gated turbo setup.. ive heard of others switching out the vt16 housing/impeller for (i think) a gt3070 over the vt16 core and exhaust side
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Re: Chiptuning Dominator 3 settings

Postby srb on Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:12 am

Just call them up, I'm sure they'll be able help.
The Dom3 certainly has the map clamping.

I've been told the overboost limp sometimes can't be cured by map clamping alone. Like I said, other factors such as too much air volume measured at the Maff sensor can also trigger it. Is why I asked if you have 3"exhaust?

Even though you've gone back to elec boost control, I'd still keep your Tillix/Dawes valve in place as a safe mode, especially if you're planning to run that much boost. Could save your turbo and engine.

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Re: Chiptuning Dominator 3 settings

Postby dsp26 on Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:57 am

Damn. I just sold the tillix on fb marketplace.

I managed to get a hold of Rob via their Facebook page, and for anyone who comes across this thread. he said that "all tune levels" will increase boost progressively.

The problem is that, it spikes slightly to around 22psi, then caps back down to 20psi. Interestingly, prior to the Dom3, I had a custom tune done previously (and removed in favour of the Dom3) where my tuner tried to set target boost to 26psi, and it would do so for a split second, then cap back to 20psi.

I am wondering, if when Mits replaced the engine due to the block issue, they also uploaded new firmware with some failsafes?

For reference, my "supporting mods" are:
- CCT Stage 1 Turbo (oem replacement with ceramic coating and billet wheel)
- 3inch turbo back exhaust with cat
- forefront intercooler + thermostat controlled fan (45deg activation)
- forefront intercooler pipes
- Cable EGR delete
- relief valve limiter blank
- tjm airtec snorkel
- ryco 02 rush mesh air filter
- autoMate torque converter lockup
- mechanical boost + pyro gauge
- brand new engine from mitsubishi (50,000km old)
- fresh injectors and scv
- full intake manifold clean with catch can

Dominator3 set to Tune 9, and injector dial to 9 o'clock position. All harnesses plugged in, rail, injectors, map, tps
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Method for boost increase

Postby dsp26 on Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:13 pm

Off the back of my other thread here about chip boost increase:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23112

I probably should have asked first here long ago.

Is anyone here running extra boost consistently & reliably, and if so, do you have a means to NOT trigger the P1298 overboost limp?

I've tried many things already, including a Tillix valve and using the separate needle as boost reference limiter to the MAP (instead of bleeding the line). This is still dangerous because the wife doesn't understand when/why she would need to feather the throttle once or twice every 8 seconds to prevent the limp.

The only two things left i can think of and haven't tried are as follows, but would also like to hear some thoughts on them working or not:
- Tuner to delete the P1298 DTC, same as you would to delete the EGR failure DTC so you can disconnect the solenoid (ECU method of EGR delete)
- using a fuel/boost cut defender and voltage clamping the MAP sensor +ve line. If so, does anyone know the voltage for 20psi/137kPa?

Thanks in advance
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Re: Chiptuning Dominator 3 settings

Postby dsp26 on Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:16 pm

Thanks by the way @srb. That may have answered my question.

I'll try my luck with a different question, which i've posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=23113
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Re: Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby NowForThe5th on Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:54 pm

Threads merged. It's heading towards being like reading about installing new speakers and having a separate thread for each door. :roll:

I have a Chip-It chip. It's not the Dominator 3, but the one immediately before that. It's combined with a separate chip for injector duration and, all together, is pretty much the same except that I have to load the tunes individually.

In the Pajero, with the variable vane turbo, similar to the MN, I'm currently running Tune 8 and 23psi boost. Still a touch too rich but boost is controlled by a Dawes valve and holds steady as a maximum, regardless of other conditions. On paper that gives me over 220kW (yes killer wasps, not ponies) and around 700Nm. 0-100 in 7.0 seconds flat. I was running around 28psi but backed it off on advice from my tuner. He's repeated that advice a few times here on the forum, specifically for the 4D56T which is nowhere near as strong as the 4M41.

The other thing that you seem to have ignored is the exhaust. 3" exhausts on MNs are an invitation for overboost limp modes. Time and time again it's been said. Even on the 4M41 the standard 65mm exhaust is plenty and although much less common, overboost can happen on those with a bigger exhaust.

The Dawes, or Tillix, valves are a nice safe way of increasing boost but your chip should not be relaying a value within 1psi of actual to the ECU. Have you checked the sensor, connections and the signal to and from the chip? If that part of your chip is misbehaving then that could contribute to your problems.

As far as I'm aware there were only a very few copies of the software needed to program these chips. Chip Tuning may have a copy but I suspect not. One copy was on a USB which was fried by static. That was the second last one and was going to be installed for use in programming my car. :cry: The last remaining copy is held by a guy who steadfastly refuses to either copy it or even lend it.

I do have a whole bunch of tunes, a couple of them customised for my Pajero and some also customised for various MN owners. No way of telling which is which, though, without the software. Although the performance is mind boggling, I've stayed away from the 10-15 tunes after blowing a hole in the side of the common rail once and totally destroying a solid copper disc gasket on the brick in the end of the rail, a couple of times. Messy but not as expensive as a new common rail.
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Re: Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby dsp26 on Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:02 pm

Thanks @NowForThe5th. Very informative and has raised more questions for me actually

NowForThe5th wrote:In the Pajero, with the variable vane turbo, similar to the MN, I'm currently running Tune 8 and 23psi boost. Still a touch too rich but boost is controlled by a Dawes valve and holds steady as a maximum, regardless of other conditions. On paper that gives me over 220kW (yes killer wasps, not ponies) and around 700Nm. 0-100 in 7.0 seconds flat. I was running around 28psi but backed it off on advice from my tuner. He's repeated that advice a few times here on the forum, specifically for the 4D56T which is nowhere near as strong as the 4M41.


What was the rough "limit" that was advised for what I assume to be the oem VT16? I've seen countless historical threads on here where a majority were on around the 26psi range for everyday use, and 30psi for short bursts.. some with dual dawes setups. I expect the uprated CCT turbo could easily handle the 26pi constant. Or was the issue advised by the tuner more to do with overall cylinder pressures given the pitted block issue looming? I know there wasn't a real "fix" by MML/MMAL regarding the block, but given my new engine is only 50,000km/2yrs old, im expecting that issue to not arise again so soon if at all.


NowForThe5th wrote:The other thing that you seem to have ignored is the exhaust. 3" exhausts on MNs are an invitation for overboost limp modes. Time and time again it's been said. Even on the 4M41 the standard 65mm exhaust is plenty and although much less common, overboost can happen on those with a bigger exhaust.


Totally aware of the issue, and needed the 3in because I want to constantly run higher than standard boost especially with uprated turbo, which chiptuning Rob advised yesterday is necessary for Tune 9 and up. The overboost limp and the reason it happens for eveyone else isn't my concern at all. I was happy with 26psi on the Tillix setup, but given the the uprated boost range, it was very possible to trigger the overboost limp a lot easier on partial throttles (including whilst on cruise control) exceeding what I assume to be a ~20psi ecu target boost cap. I was, however, not using the separate needle valve to bleed for ramping so could have potentially mostly eliminated that. I know how to feather the throttle and do it even now out of habit, but my wife being my wife, refuses to remember it, and as such, is dangerous for her surrounded by trucks going up the country mountains to visit her parents with the kids.

In a nutshell, I just want to be able to run the higher boost, just as I would on a turbo petrol, without having this limp happen. I'd be happy with the MIL showing as long as it doesnt limp!


NowForThe5th wrote:The Dawes, or Tillix, valves are a nice safe way of increasing boost but your chip should not be relaying a value within 1psi of actual to the ECU. Have you checked the sensor, connections and the signal to and from the chip? If that part of your chip is misbehaving then that could contribute to your problems.


Would like more clarification on "chip should not be relaying a value within 1psi of actual to the ECU". If the ECU is capping the VGT to 20psi based on what I assume to be readings from both the MAP and MAF, how is a chip able to increase the boost well beyond 1psi of the target boost? I assumed the MAP sensor intercept plug was clamping MAP sensor voltage so that the VGT bleed is delayed, and thus, also assumed this would prevent the overboost limp from triggering because the MAP sensor would not have recognised the intercept. Chiptuning Rob said yesterday that the chip doesnt do any clamping, but "reduces the number by something like 10%", and I don't event know what "number" is referring to.

If I was to look at the above explanation another way, I suspect the rail/injector tuning is meant to overboost the normal way just by free-flow and fuelling, and the MAP intercept simply reads the overboosted values and detunes the fuelling to bring the boost back down organically before the 8second P1298 overboost trigger.

Thus if the above is correct, and I am only momentarily seeing a spike to 22psi, the actuator rod limiter on my new CCT turbo may have already been mechanically calibrated for 20psi which could be my issue. Though when I had an ecu remap shortly after engine replacement 2yrs ago, tuner set target boost to 25psi, and it only worked for a momentary spike and capped back down to 20psi. There were countless other threads here where many suspected the dealer will have also updated the firmware with some forms of detuning so could also be this.

If all the above is correct, then how have others had their tuner "tune/remap the ecu for 30psi" and still have the P1298 DTC as a looming factor? And the only thing I can think of is to delete the DTC itself like you would with the EGR for ecu EGR delete. But not a single thread on triton/challenger forum or facebook group details what the tuner has done to achieve this.


NowForThe5th wrote:As far as I'm aware there were only a very few copies of the software needed to program these chips. Chip Tuning may have a copy but I suspect not. One copy was on a USB which was fried by static. That was the second last one and was going to be installed for use in programming my car. :cry: The last remaining copy is held by a guy who steadfastly refuses to either copy it or even lend it.


This I find concerning. How Is the product then advertised as tunable, and the chiptuning site having a map of authorised tuners for the device? I'm not sure if it was this group or one of the Navarra ones, from vague memory, there is an individual named "Sam" that someone was able to chat with, who made adjustments to tune files and sends them back based on some sensor data a person a had to logue (ie via Torque logging).

Is this the same person you are referring to? If not, then it may have been another car forum and I will try seek them out for a copy. Does chiptuning and their authorised dealers not have a copy of the software?


NowForThe5th wrote:I do have a whole bunch of tunes, a couple of them customised for my Pajero and some also customised for various MN owners. No way of telling which is which, though, without the software. Although the performance is mind boggling, I've stayed away from the 10-15 tunes after blowing a hole in the side of the common rail once and totally destroying a solid copper disc gasket on the brick in the end of the rail, a couple of times. Messy but not as expensive as a new common rail.


I recall in the tillix thread you mentioned that bursting had happened to your rail, but good to know now the exact reason that it was because of the Dom and Tune10-15. I mite even go back down to 7 or 8... I've alreayd had the limiter leak, and the main pump?rail pipe in the middle of the rail burst through a hairline crack at the tip of the end on the rail side.
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Re: Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby dsp26 on Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:25 pm

As an aside, do we really need the editor?

The DPS files are just 3 columns of numbers. I would like to know what the numbers are off and what they meaningfully translate to so I can play with them.

The first 2 columns are the same between all the tune files and only the 3rd column begins to deviate between the tune files from row 26 of 202.

If I had to guess, these are rail pressures at rpm increments. Columns 1 & 2 are the valid range of rail pressure for that rpm point, and the 3rd column is the target rail pressure in Pascals/Pa

If this is correct, then my assumption in the above post about how the Dom3 raises boost is also correct and there is no commnad/value related to boost increase.. just an organic boost spike as a result of fuelling and free-flow.
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Re: Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby NowForThe5th on Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:10 pm

dsp26 wrote:What was the rough "limit" that was advised for what I assume to be the oem VT16? I've seen countless historical threads on here where a majority were on around the 26psi range for everyday use, and 30psi for short bursts.. some with dual dawes setups. I expect the uprated CCT turbo could easily handle the 26pi constant. Or was the issue advised by the tuner more to do with overall cylinder pressures given the pitted block issue looming? I know there wasn't a real "fix" by MML/MMAL regarding the block, but given my new engine is only 50,000km/2yrs old, im expecting that issue to not arise again so soon if at all.


Irrelevant really. They are completely different engines. 4M41 in the Pajero is 3.2l and came from a Mitsubishi/Fuso truck. The 4D56T in the Triton originated in the Mitsubishi Sigma (or earlier) as a petrol engine. His concerns were not with the engine itself so much as the bolted on bits and, of course, he was correct. Even so, I agree the peaks in the high 20s are ok if boost is generally held down to around 25psi.

dsp26 wrote:Would like more clarification on "chip should not be relaying a value within 1psi of actual to the ECU".


The chip should be sending a modified signal to the ECU, i.e. not the real boost but a figure well below that so that the ECU will react as though it needs more. If the difference that you're seeing is less than 1psi then I'd suspect that either the sensor or cabling/connections is/are faulty or the chip is not modifying the signal correctly. Or, the chip programming is off. So, if the real boost is 24psi then the chip should be telling the ECU that the boost is, say, 17psi. If the chip is telling the ECU that boost is 24psi then the ECU will see that as an overboost condition and either bleed boost off until it gets back down to 20psi (target) or declare an event and go into limp mode until the condition is corrected.

Now I've just read what Rob at Chip Tuning told you - essentially the same thing as what I said above.

dsp26 wrote:how have others had their tuner "tune/remap the ecu for 30psi"


By way of tuning the ECU or a piggyback chip? Can't really tell you about the ECU tuning since I'm no expert but I do know that some tuners do have the ability to get into the ECU and change things, manually. That's different from just loading a tune. If using a piggyback chip, then easy to modify the signal, as above.

I can't help you with how your aftermarket turbo has been calibrated other than to say that it's a possible culprit.

dsp26 wrote:How Is the product then advertised as tunable, and the chiptuning site having a map of authorised tuners for the device?.....
Is this the same person you are referring to? Does chiptuning and their authorised dealers not have a copy of the software?


Different person.

Did you ask Rob if he could adjust the tune for you?

Chip Tuning did not develop that chip. It was designed and made by Chip-It, a different company from W.A. Back in the day only one of the principals of Chip_it and one other person, who was doing some development work for them, had the software which was very tightly controlled. Whether Chip Tuning have the software now, I don't know. The guy at Chip-It then allowed one other person a copy which he put on a USB and then fried it with static. No further copies were forthcoming. In the interim I have managed to get hold of some software which I've been told is capable of programming these tunes. My one and only Windows computer, an old IBM notebook, then carked itself and I haven't yet replaced, so can't verify whether the claim is true, or not. I do have some XP VMs so could try it out in one of those but really not high priority for me at the moment.
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Re: Optimising boost for Dominator 3 chip

Postby gartam on Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:46 pm

Those cct turbo's have a max boost limit of 26 psi, that's what they told me. I'm getting one done now that will run 50 psi all day with a max of 90. Not that I would go anywhere near that.
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