Oils aint Oils

Discussion on servicing, engine oils, gearbox oils, diff oils etc

Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:40 pm

If it is any help, I make oil, all types and specs and am prepared to answer questions re the subject of oils but for obvious reasons, preferably not brands....fire away and I will try to help but I am not here a lot so it mat take me awhile to answer, cheers
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby boycee on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:43 pm

OK whats the best grade of oil for the 3.2 diesel? :?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:57 pm

viscosity wise, a 10w/40 or a 15w/40 but there is more to it than that.

Japanese diesel engine manufactures such as mitsi, nissan etc call for a JASO DH1 (Japan Automobile standard ass'n) specification in diesels which, if the vehicle is not fitted with a DPF, requires a medium ash (detergency) oil.

Low ash or low detergency oils will not keep engines as clean as medium ash/detergency, so in summary ...

1. 10w/40 or 15w/40
2. JASO DH1 rating as well as API service rating of CH-4 or better
3. meduim ash, say 1.3% to 1.5%
4. and oils built on group 2 or better base oils, semi synthetc would be my choice

I run a 15w/40, semi synthetic 1.3% ash JASO DH1, API CH-4 in my glxr

does that help
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby boycee on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:09 pm

cheers. geez there is alot more to it than I thought.
My uncle worked for two big oil companies and used to supply my oil for the drag car through a sponsorship deal ;)
Now he has retired so your help is fantastic. Thankyou 8-) :D
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:11 pm

my pleasure boycee
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Steve-o on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:18 am

My stealership uses Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15-40. Checking the product data its spec are as follows:

PRODUCT DATA
CASTROL MAGNATEC DIESEL 15W-40
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15W-40 combines Intelligent Molecules with dedicated diesel technology
for a stronger layer of protection to maintain engine efficiency. Castrol Magnatec Diesel keeps
your diesel vehicle at its peak for longer.
PRODUCT APPLICATION
Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15W-40 is suitable for diesel cars, light commercial vehicles and 4WDs
requiring API CD, CF, ACEA A2/B2 or A3/B3.
Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15W-40 complies with the Australian motor industry agreed phosphorus
limits, to assist in prolonging catalyst and oxygen sensor life.
Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15W-40 is NOT recommended for heavy commercial vehicle.
PRODUCT FEATURES & BENEFITS
Every car engine type can experience the benefits of using unique, revolutionary Castrol Magnatec
Diesel 15W-40, including:
• ‘Intelligent Molecules’ cling and bond to metal surfaces giving extra protection against engine
wear.
• Dedicated diesel technology maintains engine efficiency and responsiveness.
• Maintains fuel economy through viscosity control.
• Excellent soot handling performance which provides less oil thickening and reduced wear.
It is important to note that the superior wear protection offered by Castrol Magnatec Diesel
15W-40 will be reduced if mixed with other engine oils.
<snip>
PRODUCT DATA
PERFORMANCE LEVELS
Castrol Magnatec Diesel 15W-40 is recommended where the following current and superseded
classifications and performance fuels are cited.
• American Petroleum Institute API Service Classification:
Petrol: SM* (SL, SJ, SH and all superseded classifications)
Diesel: CF

• Association des Constructeurs Européens d’Automobiles (ACEA):
Petrol: A3
Diesel: B3
*All performance requirements.
The ACEA specifications are defined as oils that are intended for use in gasoline (A1) and passenger
car and light commercial diesel (B1) engines capable of using low friction, lower viscosity oils with a
high temperature/high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 to 3.5 cP. These oils may be unsuitable for use in
some engines.


Am I right in saying it doesn't meet the CH specification?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Homer on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:46 am

Hey aussie,

I am using a full synthetic 5W-50 in my V6 petrol.

In the brand I chose (Mobil1) this is the closest I could get to a 10 or 15 weight oil while giving the top end of 50 for those hot towing up the beach track/bogged with bash plate chock full of sand situations. Being in Brisbane I would prefer 15W-50 but full synthetic Mobil 1 doesn't come in that weight.

Am I on the right track?

I don't need to be brand specific and could change to suit better car requirements, just think full synthetic was better protection for the above conditions - the extra $25 doesn't bother me every 15,000 K's.

Open to suggestions.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:58 am

General advice is ... check the service manual that came with your vehicle, it will give you some ratings that the vehicle manufacturer wants in an oil, check these against the specs of the oil that you are using.

Whilst this is not the end of it, it is a good place to start.

Oils are designed primarliy on what the OEM (engine manufacturer) requires, in precis form ... the OEM's of this world determine what they want spec wise and then the additive companies build an additive to satisfy the OEM and then supply that additive to oil companies for blending, not all oil companies follow this procedure correctly (no direct reference to castrol or anyone else here), some just ignore what is required by the OEM and do what they want.

Many oil companies are profit driven and are experts at "marketing" an oil and most of the public through ignorance just accept what the oil company is saying and or recommending without giving it a second thought, and that can be a real problem.

Most dealers from my experience choose what oil they use in the workshops based on many factors such as cost/profit etc, the spec is not the prime consideration with those sus dealers, I have personally seen dealers using the wrong oil and when asked why almost always the answer is along the lines of "we have an exceptionally good deal with our oil suppler" and there can be other factors to that also.

Check specs of both the OEM and of the Oil for correct match, personally I would not use an oil with a diesel rating as low as CF, i think the last time we sold that spec was to Noah.

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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:18 am

Hi homer, yes you are on the right track but there are synthetics and there are synthetics.

Synthetics start at Group 3 then 4 and 5, most of what we see marketed in this country (by no means all) is group 3 and it is quite fine, I am a great believer in group 2 and group 3 base oils accross the board for what we do (group 1 is mineral and group 2 is mineral group 1 hydrocracked or further refined to make group 2), there is not a great difference when it comes to 2 and 3 that we ordinary people would notice.

The viscosity, well there just may be a reason that mobil don't make the 15w/50 and that would most likely be that it is not generally a good idea, the thicker than normal OEM recomended viscosity can under certain circumstances lead to trouble.

Whilst a "thicker when hot oil" is a good idea under very harsh conditions, when the conditions are normal it is not such a good idea, it is also most likely thicker at cold start and the net effect of this is that the oil will have more resistance to flow, cold start flow is MOST important as that is where most of your wear can be attributed to.

Again check the OEM specs and the specs of any oil that you are considering

cheers
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Homer on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:58 am

Thanks mate.

My understanding was the 5 made for thinner at cold than say 10 or 15?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Steve-o on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:18 am

OEM Spec according to the manual on mine specifies API: CF, for the 3.2 DID.
so I suppose the dealer is just using the cheapest they can get away with, without voiding the warranty.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sierra on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:40 am

Moved from another heading.
Aussie I would appreciate your expert opinion.
Mitsubishi specify a GL3 oil for the manual gearbox but it's virtually impossible to source and I ended up using Penrite Sin Manual Trans SAE 75W-85 GL-4 Plus as Penrite tech line suggested.
Mitsubishi say not to use 'commercial' oil in the gearbox but someone recently had a dealer change theirs and they used a GL-4 apparently?
I changed mine because it was noisy when hot as the clutch was released in neutral and Mitsubishi said it was 'clutch rollover' and they all do it to some extent. It doesn't with the Penrite but is still a bit rumbly in neutral when cold.
The stuff I drained at 7,000km was dirty and without substance.
When warm it's quiet and works perfectly when cold and up to temp.
The idle is so quiet with some 2T oil in the fuel tank I might be hearing noise that was always there cold in neutral?
:? :) :D
Might be draining the fuel tank after mentioning that to you?
:? :? :? :shock:
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Homer ... correct, 5 is thinner than 10 or 15 but don't go too low or you may loose oil pressure at idle.

Steve ... i will later on try to find a link to explain the ratings and post, just don't have time right now, stay tuned.

Sierra ... My opinion on gl3 vs gl4, gl4 is ok, can't remember when I last saw a gl3 recomendation for this type of box, wait, it might have been Noah, now I am confused !!

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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:15 pm

I have found a pdf file on api service classifications, can anyone tell me how to upload to here ? cheers
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sierra on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:33 pm

Aussie wrote:I have found a pdf file on api service classifications, can anyone tell me how to upload to here ? cheers

All I know is to copy and paste or use photobucket. The latter might let you copy a pdf file?
:?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:32 pm

tried cut & paste and it is all over the place, photobucket does not accept pdf's, more idea's please
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:11 pm

ah ha, found a link to another site that displays the api ratings, enjoy !

http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby mad992 on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:15 pm

gidday aussie , whats your view on adding 2t , with our diesel trucks

cheerz mad
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Racer on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:34 pm

Poor old Aussie is getting bombarded...we all want to know what the best to run for our machines...

Aussie..I am running Olive Oil in the Gear Box, Canola in the engine and Peanut Oil + Banana Skins in the Diff. They are all mineral oils as far as I am aware...am I doing any harm :P
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:36 pm

love canola, peanut will gum things up though, olive is too expensive and overrated, on a serious note though there have been oils developed on canola base and they work fine in certain applications, sounds like you are way ahead of the times racer.

2T, just can't justify or understand why apart from the obvious thought of upper cyl lube, if adding 2T was fantastic there would be many oil and fuel companies out there marketing a "fuel additive" under a different name and asking big bucks for it, most 2T formulations contain a solvent, the solvent usually is high flash and very low octane when compared to diesel so no benefit fuel wise, the oil content may carbon things up a tad though.

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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Racer on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:21 pm

Aussie wrote: sounds like you are way ahead of the times racer.


I've always thought that but most people just laugh at me...
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sierra on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:25 pm

Aussie wrote:2T, just can't justify or understand why apart from the obvious thought of upper cyl lube, if adding 2T was fantastic there would be many oil and fuel companies out there marketing a "fuel additive" under a different name and asking big bucks for it, most 2T formulations contain a solvent, the solvent usually is high flash and very low octane when compared to diesel so no benefit fuel wise, the oil content may carbon things up a tad though.
cheers


The benefit is supposed to be to lubricate the fuel pump and injectors, to compensate for the lack of lubrication in ULSD.
It certainly runs quieter and you would assume it's because it's being lubricated better? Perhaps some of these additives are 2T in the container? I guess the solvent is required to distribute the particles throughout the fuel but with 1 part to 200 the octane of it can have no impact on the cetane rating of the diesel. The carbon content of 2T could be less than diesel?
I appreciate you are the expert but would appreciate it if you could give it some more thought as there's a lot of evidence from individuals using it that it does have benefits and few, if any, negative impacts?
:?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Aussie on Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:04 am

can't argue with you sierra, what you are saying does make sense and at that ratio i would not be concerned, you are right about the solvent, it helps it all mix.

I have not looked into the carbon issue but on equal parts 2T vs diesel, 2T should have more but again at the ratio posted I would not think it would be a concern.

Running an injector cleaner which you should be doing now and then should keep the injectors clean any way.

In summary, of the top I cannot think of any real negatives.

I also get very embarrased at being called an "expert", there are many, and I mean many, out there that know more than I and they are the real experts, anyway do you know the definition of an expert (part of it is a "drip under pressure") :)

cheers
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sierra on Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:28 am

Thanks Aussie.
I've specialised in a few areas over the years and use expert respectfully. When you know something intimately and deal with retail customers, their perception of that field can be strange at times and you often find yourself saying the same things over and over again. That's where I hope you will put us right, with any misperceptions we will certainly have.
One eye opener was profit being the main driving force for the oils used, even if that oil only just scraped under the bar.
You have to do the right thing by your customers even if it's a pain in the arse having to explain and justify it.
That slop is is not going in mine, assuming the HPR Diesel 15 is better?

I worked with a few experts in the aircraft industry where I was hands on, engines mainly. Some knew their stuff but a couple didn't and looked up everything in reference books, mind you they drank so much[at work] it was probably the best route.

You mentioned not wanting to be brand specific but if there are couple of shining lights out there and others dim by comparison in the quality/performance of their products I'm sure we would appreciate some clues?
:? :D
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sierra on Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:51 am

This stuff sounds good, especially the following parts.

The viscosity modifiers are carefully chosen to minimise viscosity loss due to shearing, so that the oils stay in grade even after severe laboratory testing. This maintains the oil film for the life of the oil drain.

It is also recommended for long drain intervals of up to 100,000km in European engines that specify ACEA E4 oils and that require oils with higher zinc and ash levels.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/t ... esel_5w-40
:? :)
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