rear mount turbo ML Triton V6

[davo94]

Need an aftermarket ECU for that.

The Mitsubishi ECU will not run the V6 without the MAF sensor.

I have several times tried to calculate air velocity and pipe size, does my head in

The Mitsubishi ECU works in grams/second which requires some extremely advanced math to convert to cfm or something that makes sense to the velocity formula....

What brand is the ecu?
Iv had delco ecus converted from maf to map. Dicks electronics in sydney is the man for that.

[turner]

well its done, Jeremy has done some incredible work to get it all going, he has put it at a safe tune to get everything all settled in then we will see how its travelling after a few thousand klms then maybe squeeze a bit more out of it.

currently about 140kw at the wheels will post the dyno sheet when I pick it up tomorrow and maybe take a vid of the 0 to 100 times. still got some tidying up to do on wiring and induction but at least its running and I can say its the first of its kind haha

what a journey

[Crash486]

Well done. Congrats. The journey has been easier for the rest of us and we ( well I know I did ) enjoyed it. Keep it coming.

[hvac guy]

Nice job mate 140kw will be fun

[emjayar]

Nice job mate 140kw will be fun

...to say the least.

[VDJ76R]

Good stuff mate 140kw seems pretty safe - my patrol has 185rwhp with 33's on a safe tune. Im glad its all working for you and sounds like your onto something as i always thought the V6 would be capable with a turbo. Id like to see you wind it up abit and see what its really capable of

[hvac guy]

What boost did y settle on

[turner]

It's at 6psi at the moment, having some O2 sensor dramas at the moment with it running rich on idle but working through that, also the turbo is leaking oil into the induction side as we found a little residue on the maf which also caused lots of dramas. Weird thing with the factory ecu is even with all the O2 sensors unplugged the factory ecu still tries to trim the fuel so the xede is fighting the factory ecu which is drawing info from a saved "box" and we are banging out heads against the wall ugghh,
It is still trial and error and we just have to work each issue out ourselves and move onto the next one, the torque was good to with about 460nm of torque in 3rd gear so 187 rwhp is a big improvement and I'm happy with that,

Next stage well looks like I will sort out this turbo leaking (may invest in a really good one now I know it will work and maybe even a stand alone ecu so I can control every aspect of the engine.

Salt do you know if I can get inside the factory ecu and "turn off" it's program to keep adjusting fuel trims even with the O2 sensors unplugged????

[salt36]

I wonder if there is a graph of the maf sensor. Ie voltage too airflow graph.

Yep, this pic is the upper end of the table, 5 volts = 333.3 grams/second of airflow...

MAF Calibration.JPG

[hvac guy]

How many mm id is the tube the maf sits in ?

[salt36]

It's at 6psi at the moment, having some O2 sensor dramas at the moment with it running rich on idle but working through that, also the turbo is leaking oil into the induction side as we found a little residue on the maf which also caused lots of dramas. Weird thing with the factory ecu is even with all the O2 sensors unplugged the factory ecu still tries to trim the fuel so the xede is fighting the factory ecu which is drawing info from a saved "box" and we are banging out heads against the wall ugghh,
It is still trial and error and we just have to work each issue out ourselves and move onto the next one, the torque was good to with about 460nm of torque in 3rd gear so 187 rwhp is a big improvement and I'm happy with that,

Next stage well looks like I will sort out this turbo leaking (may invest in a really good one now I know it will work and maybe even a stand alone ecu so I can control every aspect of the engine.

Salt do you know if I can get inside the factory ecu and "turn off" it's program to keep adjusting fuel trims even with the O2 sensors unplugged????

Nice work mate

To your question and pm's, I just have more questions

Is the EXEDE set up to modify the signal from the ECU to the injectors like an LPG ECU does ? Since I rebuilt my engine and introduced larger petrol injectors the LPG ECU is freaking out, the engine runs OK at best on LPG now.

I am not aware of any way to stop the factory ECU from adjusting fuel trims, it may be possible but atm is beyond the gurus...

Does any boost register at idle ? if so then the EXEDE may be demanding more fuel ?
The factory ECU will ALWAYS aim for 14.7 air/fuel ratio under closed loop conditions( idle and cruise) It calculates and makes adjustments every 4 minutes.

When idling good idea to watch the short term fuel trim to see what is happening.

You can reset the injector learn and also fuel trims by disconnecting battery for 30 mins, and any second battery.

Once you reconnect the battery, turn the key to IGN 'on' then turn it off for at least ten seconds. The ECU learns the throttle position from this, I have had trouble in the past from not doing this and it does make a difference...

Does the EXEDE have fuel maps and are you using them ?

Will give this some more thought mate, there must be something making the two ECU's work against each other, just need to find it.

[salt36]

How many mm id is the tube the maf sits in ?

I just measured mine, 68mm

[hvac guy]

Give me a bit of time on this bit swamped at work. But 333grams a second is .333liters per second.

[jezzab]

It's at 6psi at the moment, having some O2 sensor dramas at the moment with it running rich on idle but working through that, also the turbo is leaking oil into the induction side as we found a little residue on the maf which also caused lots of dramas. Weird thing with the factory ecu is even with all the O2 sensors unplugged the factory ecu still tries to trim the fuel so the xede is fighting the factory ecu which is drawing info from a saved "box" and we are banging out heads against the wall ugghh,
It is still trial and error and we just have to work each issue out ourselves and move onto the next one, the torque was good to with about 460nm of torque in 3rd gear so 187 rwhp is a big improvement and I'm happy with that,

Next stage well looks like I will sort out this turbo leaking (may invest in a really good one now I know it will work and maybe even a stand alone ecu so I can control every aspect of the engine.

Salt do you know if I can get inside the factory ecu and "turn off" it's program to keep adjusting fuel trims even with the O2 sensors unplugged????

Nice work mate

To your question and pm's, I just have more questions

Is the EXEDE set up to modify the signal from the ECU to the injectors like an LPG ECU does ? Since I rebuilt my engine and introduced larger petrol injectors the LPG ECU is freaking out, the engine runs OK at best on LPG now.

I am not aware of any way to stop the factory ECU from adjusting fuel trims, it may be possible but atm is beyond the gurus...

Does any boost register at idle ? if so then the EXEDE may be demanding more fuel ?
The factory ECU will ALWAYS aim for 14.7 air/fuel ratio under closed loop conditions( idle and cruise) It calculates and makes adjustments every 4 minutes.

When idling good idea to watch the short term fuel trim to see what is happening.

You can reset the injector learn and also fuel trims by disconnecting battery for 30 mins, and any second battery.

Once you reconnect the battery, turn the key to IGN 'on' then turn it off for at least ten seconds. The ECU learns the throttle position from this, I have had trouble in the past from not doing this and it does make a difference...

Does the EXEDE have fuel maps and are you using them ?

Will give this some more thought mate, there must be something making the two ECU's work against each other, just need to find it.

Found this thread and i'll chime in. Im Jeremy, the one who is tuning it.

The XEDE modifies the MAF signal to the stock ECU. Its not the ultimate way to do things but in most applications it works quite well. If you had larger injectors for example we could just show a lower flow rate in the airflow and it would lean it out appropriately. In this situation we have just the stock injectors but we have moved the MAF into a different position so it does require a small amount of modification to the flow.

The extra injector is used to add more fuel under boost and is triggered by MAF airflow, RPMs etc. This side of things is fine and operates correctly.

A problem that can occur when you are using a piggy back ECU is that the LTFTs could already be set and then you tune it and then when the LTFTs are reset it would completely throw everything out. More so this happens with bigger injectors but since these are stock the LTFTs should really change toooooo much. There are two ways around it:

-Make sure you reset the LTFTs before you tune
-Force the system into open loop and tune from there

We tried the first one and it was no good so I tried the second way which usually just involves unplugging the O2 sensors and it will fall back into open loop. Oh not this little puppy! It still forces it LTFTs BUT it also has a very strange strategy for applying them. It can be fine in OL and then suddenly apply a +25% LTFT then go into OL and then apply a -25% OL trim with NO oxygen sensors plugged in. Very frustrating as there should really be no trims applied as they have been reset and also there is no real change to the volumetric efficiency at idle so if the STFTs were working then it should be +5/-5% as normal. Maybe just a small change to the flow the MAF sees but nothing drastic (plus the AFRs are showing correct the times the vehicle are in open loop).

Unless someone can patch the OS to force it into constant open loop I think we may be a bit screwed and after market (or tune the stock ECU with something like ECUflash (salt36?? How many tables have you discovered and what OS numbers? Or will I have to break out my Tatrix cable and spend 6 weeks in IDA, WinOLS and TunerPro? ) Ive tried quite a few "tricks" to get around it but we are fighting the stock ECU and its CL trim strategy.

Hope that makes sense

*sigh*

[salt36]

Just saw this, Welcome jezza

Woohoo finally someone on the same wavelength as me

OK I have multiple maps and configurations for ECUFlash, but don't use it to flash the ECU yet,(ECUFlash is fine to read from it) the checksums are not correct and you could brick the ECU. I use MMCFlash which is fine.

Will take this to pm and email mate as we have much to work out and I am sure we can find a solution

Triton ECU applies fuel trims to both open and closed loop I am not sure about disabling them but have the injector learn tables....

[salt36]

Give me a bit of time on this bit swamped at work. But 333grams a second is .333liters per second.

Had a chance to look at this yet ?

[hvac guy]

Very slowly do u have the airflow for 2.5 volts

[salt36]

Yep here you go...

MAF Calibration 2.jpg

[hvac guy]

Can u calibrate these figures salt as the problem wont be the maf over voltage code but maf under voltage code unless u can adjust it

[salt36]

Yep I can pretty much put any value in the lower section, can adjust the current values by percentage or just type new ones

I can also interpolate the values to smooth the transition between differing values, over two or three cells or the whole lot....

[hvac guy]

That solves that problem then lol

[MilkmanDan]

Going out on a limb here but would a MAF from a 3000GT/z32/evo be able to be used?

[hvac guy]

320 hp on the 3000gt u could be onto somthing there I wounder if the injectors fit too.

[hvac guy]

i have found the math to work out the pipe size all i need is the max hp of your engine or how much hp u think u will in the future. i will post it here MAF housing diameter
MAF signal has an absolute top end reading of 5 volts. So have to scale MAF if we want more HP (since more HP means more air will be passing through MAF).
To keep the signal under 5 volts for the maximum air flow, we have to make the diameter larger. This will make the signal smaller for a given air mass flow.
For a given mass air flow:
air velocity goes down with cross sectional area
cooling capacity goes down with cross sectional area or diameter?
voltage goes down with diameter?
MAF reading therefore down with square of diameter and with crossectional area
more air means we need more fuel - larger fuel injectors, higher pressure FPR
how to determine MAF housing diameter vs injector size and fuel pressure (fuel flow).
Effect on Airflow
One way to determine how big a housing to use for a MAF value is by simply comparing cross sectional areas using percentages.
Cross sectional area is given by A = \pi r^2 = \pi (\frac{D}{2})^2
where D is the MAF housing diameter in mm. (e.g. 88mm, 90mm, etc.)
Since the stock cross sectional area is A_{stock} = \pi (\frac{73}{2})^2 (73 being the stock MAF housing size in mm), the increase in MAF (g/s) in % = (\frac{A}{A_{stock}}-1) 100 = ({(\frac{D}{73})}^2-1) 100
Various modded MAF housing diameters
MAF Diameter Deviation Measured airmass True airmass
AWE 85mm* +35.6% 364 g/sec 493 g/sec
ASP 85mm +35.6% 493 g/sec
Custom 88mm +45.3% 528 g/sec
ASP 90mm +52.0% 553 g/sec
AWE actual dimensions are 77mm (inlet) to 100mm at sensor. It reads roughly equivalent to an 84mm-86mm MAF, but the response isn't exactly equivalent at all airflow magnitudes.
Effect on Velocity
Velocity is a good way to approximate the maximum airflow that can be measured by a sensor, because it is independent of the housing's cross sectional area.
A strong S4 running stock K03s, MAF, and fueling uses approximately 260 g/sec of air.
To calculate velocity, we convert the g/sec into m3 / sec (volume of air per second) by dividing by 1225 g / m3 (density of air at sea level).
We then divide by the cross sectional area of the housing ((Dπ / 2)2).
So we get (((260 / 1225)(m3)) / sec) / (pi * (((73 / 2) * mm)2)) = 113.437141mph

Various stock MAF housing diameters
MAF Diameter Max airflow Velocity
Stock S4 73mm 220 g/sec 96 mph
Stock RS4 83mm 320 g/sec 108 mph
Chipped S4 73mm 260 g/sec 113 mph
Stage 2+ S4 73mm 280 g/sec 122 mph
VAGCOM limit RS4 83mm 364.08 g/sec 122 mph
Stage 3- S4 73mm 310 g/sec 135 mph
5V at sensor S4 73mm 337 g/sec 147 mph
5V at sensor RS4 83mm 499 g/sec 168 mph


the math i was trying to use just would not work so i went looking and found this simple formula

[salt36]

Awesome stuff mate, ok for arguments sake lets use 350HP as a benchmark.

Quite achievable for N/A and boosted engines.