Prototype Projector

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Prototype Projector

Postby C.Salvador on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:17 pm

Happy newyear to all!

new-ish member here, but not new to car mods; just wanting to see if i can actually something needlessly complicated for the heck of it :P

i promised to do this build last September , but progress has been slow due to the truck being totaled; i got hit by a flash flood, whilst juggling engineering school.
so, im doing this even though the ute is gone :P
although, im still waiting on the insurance money, and when i get my stocks values up so i can buy another ml triton

the project:
with 8 retrofits under my belt, i always thought that HIDs were crap. cant use em to signal in daylight, go damn hot and melt reflectors sometimes,has to be done right or you'd be a tool blinding passersby, and they lose their total lumens progressively.
so i wanted a LED projector, problem is, the market only have led adapted bulbs that fit in existing projector bowls (ment for hid) resulting in less than optimal results, tendency to blind.

so, ill keep some details a secret until it's fully finished, but here's the important details:
-water cooled with an aluminum radiator meant for overclocking computers :P
-DAMN BRIGHT
-reaches twice further than any hid ive compared it with (easily)
-complicated and time consuming build.
-actually have its own digital thermostat because it seemed like a good idea at the time
-fully dimmable using electronic trickery, with just a knob (not shown... yet)


about the photos
-used my htc one 13mp camera (not the best camera, but it's all ive got :P )
- did in my street, well lit with some dark spots
- pictures does not do it justice. waaaaaaaay brighter in person.

comparing a 1year old 55w q5r projector retrofit with philips hids in my little honda jazz
against just 1 of my prototype projector (around 85% power)
~reference points~
the pink car (my sister's) is 10m away.
the wall to the left is around 30m away

this is with only the pair of q5r retro
dont get me wrong, this is a very bright retrofit, brightest available here in the PH.
it's just a very well lit road
Click to view larger picture



this is the SINGLE prototype
Click to view larger picture



this is in the garage, in a very very well lit room, the light made everything so much darker. i cant stress enough how photos dont give this any justice.
cut off line, by the way, still going to modify this
Click to view larger picture



here is a side to side video with the comparison of the projectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq4nxeKXJqw
you can actually see the street lamp and how dim it is in comparison



my takeaway from this:
get a better camera.
mine sucks.
cant see well in the dark, cant give an accurate rendering of real life brightness.


will be posting more when i get a better camera, and when more parts arrive.
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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby NowForThe5th on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:59 am

Quite a project you've taken on there. Sorry to hear about your Triton.

LED technology is moving at a pace which is almost hard to follow. There are bulbs now available which actually give reasonable results in some projectors but these are limited in availability and, for now, relatively expensive. There is also a whole pile of garbage.

Of more interest are the specific LED projectors. The Koito version is available in both genuine and retrofit (read "copy") styles although both are quite expensive. The outputs though, are very good. Upward or rear firing designs with a single, permanently mounted LED have made the use of traditional bulb types obsolete. Already the clever modders are working out how to boost these for increased output.

The technology to boost the drop-in style bulbs has been around for a while but the issue has, as you've identified, been heat management. A water cooled heat exchanger is a fascinating idea but I wonder just how practical it would be on a 4WD. Same with the fan cooled LED bulbs - I'm not sure how well they'd cope with Australian dust, beach use or even a fresh water crossing. I was in China some months ago talking to some of the manufacturers and none of them would extend warranty cover to any of these types of activity. That wouldn't be a problem with the new generation type of projector which is totally enclosed within the headlight.

HIDs don't actually get that hot. Bowl temperatures of around 105C are the high end of the normal range. Of course, high wattage or poor quality bulbs can contribute to reflector coating degradation, combining both heat and UV. Quality bulbs don't generally have this problem. Some bowls, both OEM and aftermarket, have had less than perfect reflector coatings and these caused quite a scare a few years ago.

I do agree with you on doing a retrofit right. I really don't think that it's the ideal DIY job. To get the degree of accuracy required I use custom made jigs mounted on steel benches bolted to the floor. Some of the rubbish to be seen on YouTube, relying on a bit of marking tape on the floor really just doesn't cut it for accuracy.

Which brings me to the projector you're using. Fairly sure I recognise that beam pattern although I'll admit I haven't seen a cutoff that bad for a long time. You'll have your work cut out getting that one right. Have you thought of using a different projector? There are plenty available that don't have that ridiculous, driving light like, semi circle of light, concentrating the available light into a smaller hot spot near the step and along the cutoff line. To make that projector of yours even moderately useful you're going to have to use a very aggressive foreground limiter, basically blocking off a large quantity of the light simply because the projector is putting it in the wrong place. Unless you use a lens within the projector to correct the pattern, but that is hellishly difficult to do, with even OEM projectors opting for correction outside of the projector, either by angled reflectors or fluted optics.

I'll be interested to see how this project progresses.
Chris

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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby C.Salvador on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:04 pm

thanks for the words of encouragement!

I've tried passive cooling leds, they work up until they get covered in grime (not uncommon) then they lose efficiency and eventually burn out.
I've tried fan cooled leds, even the expensive 90w waterproof ones with crees in em, but they also get problems with sand, grit damaging the fan blades and would also fail in due time.
im trying out watercooling, since all i just need are nylon reinforced hoses and clamps, not much to break (aside from the hoses themselves); then they are ready for the trail.

as for the projectors in using, these are cheap g5 projectors i had around from my very first retrofit. these were crap; but i used them to keep the expenses down. with only 2.5in diameter lenses, there were terrible in light projection. but hey, they're free!

these are the current cutoffs
taken at 2pm in the afternoon in broad daylight. ~62% brightness
wall is exactly 2.67m from light source
Click to view larger picture

Click to view larger picture

taken with the same crappy camera as the other photos.

any tips on how i can reduce the "overspray" of light?
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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby NowForThe5th on Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:52 pm

I wouldn't bother mate. I throw out projectors that are better than those things.

The extra light above the cutoff is from the LED. Because it's so far beyond the focal point the reflector and lens simply can't cope with it. Replace it with HID and they'll improve, losing all that glare above the line and those great big artefacts on each side. Not only will they glare people everywhere you go, but they'll be crap for you as well, overlighting the foreground something awful. The problem you have there is that the light source is simply too big. I suppose you could start by trying to space the bulb, moving it may reduce those reflections, but I doubt it and even a curved shield won't work if there are multiple points where the light converges between the reflector and the lens. If you're in Engineering school you should understand how a projector works.

Making bad lights brighter doesn't fix them. Being 2.5" isn't a problem in itself, just look at the FX-R3.0, it's not a bad projector, arguably better than its 3" brother on low beam.
Chris

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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby C.Salvador on Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:52 pm

Those are very good points, 5th.

Hmm, ill try playing with the distances inbetween.
I remember while eyeballing it, i came accross a sweetspot with little to no ,so called, "artefact" but the cutoff was a weird brown color, not so sharp cutoff line, more like a blurred brown outline. But it was "safe"

The reason why i wanted to make these terribly bright projectors is when i would go on a trail, i could simply put these on full, and they'd work like a ledbar but with a much further light distance, being that of their single high intensity source rather than many small ones.


Any tips on foreground limits?
Putting a metal bit like the shutter on the opposite edge of the focal point?

Hey, thanks for the input by the way
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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby NowForThe5th on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:59 pm

Ok, so addressing your need for width, here's a shot of my current headlights against a wall approximately 12m away:
Click to view larger picture

The projectors are FX-R 2.0, which I chose specifically for their width and usefulness off road. I did a night run in some very mountainous country a while back and had another forum member as a passenger. He was amazed at how these lights could actually light up around the corner when we were in hairpin bends, something that just doesn't happen with halogens or many other HIDs. The next two photos will demonstrate why:

Firstly, halogen projectors, at approximately 3m
Click to view larger picture

Now, the FX-Rs
Click to view larger picture

I took those pictures with the lights on so that only the brightest part of the beam would be visible but you can see the huge difference in width.

My point is that a good HID projector will give you the kind of width, sometimes more, that a light bar is capable of. Of course, the shots are taken with low beam, but as you'd know, they're bi-xenons so width doesn't change - just more light is exposed above the cutoff.

Here's another, this time FX-R 3.0, in high beam. It's not one of my favourite projectors but just look at the concentration in the middle and along the cutoff line.
Click to view larger picture

Importantly though, if you look at the beam patterns you'll see that light is concentrated in a smaller hot spot but that extends along the cutoff line. This is how you get width, by having the highest intensity up higher in the beam where it can light up at a distance. By comparison, those projectors of yours have a completely different pattern, almost like a driving light with fairly uniform intensity ina big round circle (obviously partially blocked when in low beam mode). There is little width and aiming them down to the point where they won't blind other road users will just result in a huge spot of light immediately in front of the vehicle. This will reduce your distance vision as your pupils constrict in reaction to all the reflected light. So, bottom line is that they simply won't do the job that you had in mind.

Foreground limiters are becoming 'old tech' as even the aftermarket develop better concentrations of light where it's needed. The problem with an FGL is that it simply blocks light where not wanted. That means waste since that light isn't getting out on to the road, where it's needed. Of course, you can make your own - they're just a shield that blocks the light close in front of the vehicle. Mount inside the projector opposite the solenoid activated shield. You may have to experiment with position, shape and size, as well as curvature. Instead of a solid FGL I've been working on a fluted lens. Correctly placed it can compress that light and either angled or in a triangular lens it can move that light more towards where it's really needed. Difficult to get fluted lenses though and beyond my current ability to make, so progress is slow.
Chris

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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby C.Salvador on Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:19 pm

dang, those are good projectors :shock:
i need to get myself one of those :P

yeah, i can see where width is an issue, and i see your point about it being like a spotlight rather than a headlight :P

ill try a different projector all together, then i get to cobble up some more funding :P

well, if all else fails, i can use what i have to make a wotercooled 1kw led bar :P
with 10 100w leds. but that would be preposterously overkill, i'd be mad to do that. or would i?
:lol: just kidding

anyway, back to the drawing board for me :P
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Re: Prototype Projector

Postby C.Salvador on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:38 pm

Update:

I bought a pair ofstandalone aimable $100 philips led with built-in fans, aluminum heatsinks, and thermal managment systems.

Will be posting side to side comparison against my philips hids

All inside koito projectors

First impressions:
Leds give a lot more even light spread (it splits up the verybright hot spot into two not-so-intense hot spots)
Hids throw the light alot further


Will post photos when i get a decent camera


Seems like im using my existing watercooling setup for a 1kw led bar :p
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