4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc brakes

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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:52 pm

I've always thought disc brakes were superior to drums in almost every way. I'd take 4 wheel disc brakes over a mix any time. If it can be made easy enough and affordable enough I can see myself following 26 down at least this part of the path.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:22 pm

Why would the heaviest vehicles use drum brakes? The stopping power involved in stopping a road train would have to be massive
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby Hymie on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:38 pm

The drums trucks use are massive and they are air assisted.

Trucks use drum brakes because they have a greater contact area resulting in a greater stopping force. The drum brakes you find in the Triton and similar sized cars do not have the sort of contact area the trucks do even if you calculated it on a tonne per square inch.

The reason discs are used in cars is for the heat dissipation advantages. I had an LJ Torana that had drum brakes all round and it was remarkable how well it stopped, problem was you had to adjust the brakes weekly or you would be pumping the brake pedal just to get feeling.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:40 pm

The drum brakes would still have a huge contact area compared to the front disc brakes but like I said before in racing applications disc would win hands Down, but in shear braking force drums for the win :twisted:
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby L200Shogun on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:48 pm

Drum brakes :shock:





For the history fans. There is a better pit stop video somewhere with really hot drums.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:49 pm

Wrong again I'm afraid. I reckon you're forgetting that a disc has two braking surfaces so in reality it has more surface area than a drum. Drums fade more when hot as they can't cool as easily as discs. Also they fill with dust and require more adjustment and servicing.

http://www.whyhighend.com/disc-vs-drum-brakes.html

Drums are cheaper to manufacture which is one reason. But there is another reason to do with classification of vehicles as commercial and the tax benefits that brings. I haven't got the precise detail of that but it's one of the reasons our Tritons are made that way. How else to explain that most of the other Mitsubishi products have all wheel disc brakes?

Also heavy trucks are starting to play around with discs these days too.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:57 pm

Lol the discs hes referring too 14" and 8 pot caliper ermmm not on your average triton mate lol we have a single pot, and if you take one of our drums apart and have a look you'll see the contact area in comparison to the front
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby dunney on Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:07 pm

Aren't drum brakes better when crossing water? Either way the small amount of rear braking modern cars do its not really a worthwhile modification
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby Tony on Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:25 pm

Drums are cheaper to manufacture which is one reason. But there is another reason to do with classification of vehicles as commercial and the tax benefits that brings.


This is main reason^^^^

Disc work better on lighter vehicles such as Tritons. 8-)

I have converted My old LandRover 120 to disc as got sick of the drums. Yes have great surface area in ideal environment. But environment is where they fall over. :roll: :lol:

Only caveat I have with rear disc is. gravel can get wedged in the calipers and stuff the rotors. May never be an issue with the setup 26 runs.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:03 pm

triton_guru wrote:Lol the discs hes referring too 14" and 8 pot caliper ermmm not on your average triton mate lol we have a single pot, and if you take one of our drums apart and have a look you'll see the contact area in comparison to the front


I've had the brakes apart plenty. In fact I wrote a whole thread about it. But let's let science/maths prove you wrong rather than relying on my (correct) opinion.

Fortunately for our maths both the drums and the discs have the same diameter (when new) of 295mm. I'm using inside diameter for the drums and assuming they're not worn. I don't have a width on hand but I'll make the overly generous assumption that they're 50mm wide in the area available for friction with the shoes. I'm pretty sure the contact patch on the shoe isn't quite that wide but in the end the outcome is so one sided it doesn't matter if I'm over or under by a little here.

So from 295mm, we halve that for the radius and calculate a circumference. As I'm lazy I used an online calculator which tells me the circumference (which is the length of the friction surface) is 926mm. Multiply that by 50mm and we get a surface area for the inside of the brake drum of 46,300mm square.

Now to the discs. As I said, also 295mm. The height of the disc surface according to the DBA website is 46.5mm. We're trying to calculate the surface area of a donut shaped area here which is a little tricky. But we can calculate the area of the whole disc using the diameter of 295mm to get the radius and performing the calculation. If we then subtract 46.5 from the radius we will end up with the radius of the smaller circle - to continue the donut thing, the size of the hole in the middle. Then if we subtract the area of the smaller circle from the area of the larger circle we will have the surface area of that outer ring.

So the area of the whole circle is 68,349.3 mm sq and the inner is 32,047.4mm sq so the surface area of the outer ring is 36,301.9mm sq. But here's the catch as I mentioned above. We have to double it because there is an inner disc surface and the outer disc surface both being used for braking. Which gives us 72,603.8mm sq.

So - the disc has a friction surface of about 72,500 mm sq and the drum has about 46,500 mm sq. Comparing apples with apples then the disc has a significantly greater surface area than the drum.

We could get into further discussions about the side of the pads, the size of the contact patch on a brake shoe, the level of force exerted by a caliper vs a wheel cylinder and so on and so forth but we'll find the limits of our mathematical skills pretty bloody quickly I suspect.

Anyway it doesn't much matter. You'll find very few people suggesting that drums are better than discs for a really good reason - they're just not.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby borngeek on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:46 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:Anyway it doesn't much matter. You'll find very few people suggesting that drums are better than discs for a really good reason - they're just not.


correct. disks woop drums every day of the week in braking performance.

what idiot would suggest otherwise? :? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby salt36 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:38 am

I agree with discs being better.

A previous car I had, HT Holden had the rear drums and when I swapped out the diff for a Ford 9" with disc brakes the stopping distance was almost halved 8-)

AND I stopped climbing under the thing each week to adjust the shoes 8-)
This is easier on the Triton but still need to get the wheel off the ground to adjust shoes properly.
Disc's all the way for me, maintenance free and better braking performance 8-)
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby 4wd26 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:08 am

^^^^
I don't want or need to start an argument in my build thread

The above pretty well sums up the reasons why I did this mod

I was sick of constant adjustment, of taking the wheel and drum off most times I wheeled to clean

Because if I didn't i was up for a heap of money in repairs/ rebuilds

Having spent $$$ constantly on a under performing brake setup
(For my use) I tried something different

The fact that my wife noticed better braking works well for me as a added bonus

The additional benefits of no brake fade which can be experienced with the drums especially with a auto and towing rain to be proven

I'm happy I spent the money, it will not be for everyone

I have had it set up to replicate a factory system, so has a dust/ gravel guard

AND finally
This mod has been engineered and mod plated, this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a better braking option?
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:28 am

Apart from when I go off road all I do is highway driving, brakes hardly get a workout (apart from when a roo or cow decides to jump out) I work along side blokes who are race and drag enthusiasts and all have told me in shear stopping power drums are better but for constant use discs are the go. If you know how to set drums up they work well, I'm all for custom stuff everything on my triton is custom no arb or tjm here lol and I think discs would be a pretty cool thing to do but still don't believe they are that much better than drum.

And everything can be engineered mate that's why you get people driving gqs with 12"lifts haha

But I'm not taking anything away from this at all, and diff gears I cant wait to read how they done that and how much they will be charging as it is something I plan on doing myself

Keep up the good build mate
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby mattz on Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:19 am

Well done 26 8-).

Just to add my 2 cents into the disc vs drum argument.....
More and more trucks are coming out with disc brakes. Most new trailers have disc brakes. Disc brakes is the way the transport industry is heading especially now new regulations have come into force where all heavy vehicles and trailers manufactured must have ABS
That all adds up to disc brakes being better than drum brakes to me.
Drum brakes are just cheaper to manufacture.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby al coholic on Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:57 am

triton_guru wrote: and I think discs would be a pretty cool thing to do but still don't believe they are that much better than drum.

:lol: You're wrong :lol:
I own a Pajero with 4 wheel discs and an ML with disc/drum combo.
The difference is not even comparable, even with the Paj being a heavier vehicle :roll: 4 wheel disc FTW :lol: This has also been proven at Ultimates workshop on their braking/alignment machine ;)

As 26 has already said, no engineer will pass a brake upgrade if it's not better than original :roll: You'd be wrong once again if you think someone driving a GQ with 12" of lift has it engineered. Just because it's on the road doesn't mean it's engineered :lol: That's hardly a valid argument.....




Loving these mods 26, good to see it's all working out as planned :D
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:43 am

al coholic wrote:
triton_guru wrote: and I think discs would be a pretty cool thing to do but still don't believe they are that much better than drum.

:lol: You're wrong :lol:
I own a Pajero with 4 wheel discs and an ML with disc/drum combo.
The difference is not even comparable, even with the Paj being a heavier vehicle :roll: 4 wheel disc FTW :lol: This has also been proven at Ultimates workshop on their braking/alignment machine ;)

As 26 has already said, no engineer will pass a brake upgrade if it's not better than original :roll: You'd be wrong once again if you think someone driving a GQ with 12" of lift has it engineered. Just because it's on the road doesn't mean it's engineered :lol: That's hardly a valid argument.....


sorry didnt realise you was a engineer and knew everything about brakes please excuse me, im not wrong i have a different opinion is all i guarantee that if you spent the same amount on your drums as 26 has on his conversion you can get them working really well, pretty sure pajeros have them all round because its independant suspension all the way round, like i have said before several times discs would be good for constant braking ie around a track etc on around citys but when its hard breaking for not long periods of time drum ftw.

well my mate has a 8" suspension lift and 2 " body lift on his gu and its all engineered mate maybe thats a more valid argument???



Loving these mods 26, good to see it's all working out as planned :D
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby 4wd26 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:44 am

he is from south Australia- they have some of the better rules around modifications and engineering available in the country (if you like big lifts etc)

not sure of 12" lift but you can get some pretty radical stuff approved.

but they still have to prove it roadworthy, brake tests swerve tests, and these are to prove that the vehicle with the modifications is better than standard ;)
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby bill65 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:25 am

ea too there own. if you like drum brakes keep them or get disc. me I like discs off road and how are the gears going :lol:
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby 4wd26 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:41 am

just to muddy the waters, the wagon triton derivative (challenger) has discs all round and is not IRS

.......

gears are going well and provide a better driving experience than expected with the 32" tyres
I was thinking it might have been reving a bit higher than it actually is, so I have a win and will prove beneficial when towing with the 32" tyres and auto.

always been envious of guys with ML's running 33" tyres with manual boxes getting better economy than me with 32" and auto :evil:
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby borngeek on Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:58 am

al coholic wrote:
triton_guru wrote: and I think discs would be a pretty cool thing to do but still don't believe they are that much better than drum.

:lol: You're wrong :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol: yes, yes he is.
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby triton_guru on Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:58 pm

Ermm no I just have a different opinion like I stated several times before, grow up people your like little school kids
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby trouble on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:21 pm

No sorry mate discs are way better
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby har05l on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:47 pm

Discs for me too :lol:

We do mine in about a month ok 26 :twisted:

Looking forward to climbing under and having a look ;)
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Re: 4wd26 2008 ML auto- now with 4.6 gears and rear disc bra

Postby al coholic on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:59 pm

triton_guru wrote:Ermm no I just have a different opinion like I stated several times before, grow up people your like little school kids

Mate, it's not like that at all.

That's fine to have a different opinion but you are the one who re-posts that opinion over and over after every other reply from other members. You've posted 7 times in the last 20 odd replies.....So in other words, you're insinuating you are right and everyone else is wrong!!

You have nothing to back up what you are saying apart from "a mate told you drums are better" and that's the only way you've formed the basis of your "opinion"

If you can't see why others who know discs are better than drums think that's ridiculous.....well.......
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