New engine worse than original.

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New engine worse than original.

Postby wildturkeycanoe on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:18 pm

This is more technical but I'll put it up here for general conversation in case it is nothing to do with the engine.
I had the new motor put in a while ago, just had 10,000km service done today. The problem I have, I wish I had the old engine back in it.

The old engine, even though it had it's "Triton lag", went pretty well. There is a steep hill I go up to my mate's property that I used to cruise on about 70-80km/h all the way. Even with camper it'd do 60 clicks. Now I have the new engine in, I can barely do 60 up the same hill, unloaded. How is this possible?
I used to be able to get around 11.5L/100km on the highway, even under 12L/100km with camper once. Now I can't get it below 13.5 on highway and around town it averages 15L/100km and is at worst about 18L/100. This is a brand new motor with nearly 15,000km on it. What gives?
I though perhaps it's because I put in a foam uni-filter instead of paper air filter [every trip up the mountains I'd have to replace it from being clogged], but I had that in before the new engine. Maybe the new tyres, which are only half an inch wider than before. What could it be?
Acceleration is almost non-existent, worse than before the new donk. From a standstill I plant the foot to the floor, move slowly, engine starts picking up to maybe about 2000rpm, then roughly 3-4 seconds later a little get up and go, then turbo kicks in and finally we get some power. But then the auto kicks into second, all motivation ceases and revs drop to below 2000. It's like the throttle got cut off. Same again, nothing for a couple of seconds until turbo, then finally some oomph. It is so frustrating, even without air-con going. Even if I'm doing 70km/h and just let my foot back off for a second, it feels like someone turned the motor off for a second and then I have to wait for about 2-3 seconds for the engine to respond again. It never did this with the old motor.

I though perhaps the injectors need a SQL, but after leaving the dealer and driving home today, it still sucked 16L/100km all the way home. Up a bit of an incline, I struggled to get her from 80 up to 100, over probably 500m to 1km, with the pedal to the floorboard.

I am now in the mindset that it needs an ECU remap. I cleaned the air filter today, just in case, but it made no diff. EGR is blocked, catch can activated, no inlet manifold grime. What else could it be?

Also, any day that the mercury hits 25 degrees or above, the clutch fan is screaming it's head off. Doing its job or just robbing me of power? So contemplating an electric fan to rid me of that awful noise.

I love my Triton, help me want to keep loving it!
]2011 MN Triton 2.5 diesel, canopy, roof basket, Aux. battery & 80W solar panel, reverse camera, UHF, SatNav and in-car DVD to keep kids quiet. Bullbar with Runva 9500lb winch, 2 inch EFS lift, custom vinyls and LED light bar.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby RHKTriton on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:05 am

Not the outcome anyone wants.

Did you get a turn-key engine, with all the ancilliaries installed, eg turbo, alternator, etc?
Or, did they transplant most of the gear from your old engine?

I always wonder if post factory work such as engine swaps ends in the same quality installation.

Larger tyres will have a measurable impact but there are some checks you could do.

Check for any kinked or crushed plumbing that may have occurred from the engine removal & installation process.

Check all the electrical connections that would be affected.

Check that vacuum lines are correctly hooked up

I'd check the variable vane mech for free moving operation on the turbo, esp if the old one had been reused.

I had a case where a gasket in the inlet manifold had slipped during reassembly after a valve adjustment and partially blocked the inlet - was obvious improvement once sorted.

Happy hunting.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby wildturkeycanoe on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:57 pm

RHKTriton wrote:Not the outcome anyone wants.

Did you get a turn-key engine, with all the ancilliaries installed, eg turbo, alternator, etc?
Or, did they transplant most of the gear from your old engine?

It was a long motor with new injectors, the rest was reused.

I will check the things you mentioned but surely if something was crushed or unplugged, the ECU would register a fault wouldn't it? It only takes one sensor to be a bit out of whack for the CEL to come on nowadays.

RHKTriton wrote:I'd check the variable vane mech for free moving operation on the turbo, esp if the old one had been reused.

I will check but using the wi-fi OBD reader I can see the turbo getting up to 20 odd PSI while running so I don't think it is a lack of pressure, which makes me think it wouldn't be a blocked intercooler either in that case. Maybe an exhaust blockage??

RHKTriton wrote:I had a case where a gasket in the inlet manifold had slipped during reassembly after a valve adjustment and partially blocked the inlet - was obvious improvement once sorted.

That is a possibility, but also a big job to start dismantling and then getting new gaskets too. It'd cost a heap too.

I'll wait till I get it dyno'ed and remapped, perhaps this process can identify the culprit.
]2011 MN Triton 2.5 diesel, canopy, roof basket, Aux. battery & 80W solar panel, reverse camera, UHF, SatNav and in-car DVD to keep kids quiet. Bullbar with Runva 9500lb winch, 2 inch EFS lift, custom vinyls and LED light bar.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby Thongsbot3000 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:35 am

You mentioned EGR blocked - Plate or Eect mod?
If Plate, Id take it out test a few days just to rule out. Even the electronic mod also, test it not faulty.

Im not sure on the 2.5L motors, but blanking the 3.2L can cause mild limpys, without error code display on dash
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby Steane on Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:20 pm

Timing belt installed a tooth or two out?
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby BBP on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:15 am

Steane wrote:Timing belt installed a tooth or two out?


I was thinking along the same lines. Unless that is all there on a long motor. I imagine it has had the pump reused maybe that was out when refitted. Had the that happen on my old 4m40 Paj. Shop that did the work to replace timing chain etc, got it out of whack. It ran and sounded ok but no real power and the pump was retarded, couldn't adjust pump timing properly. Pulled it down and redid it myself.

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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby lufc on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:58 am

wildturkeycanoe wrote:This is more technical but I'll put it up here for general conversation in case it is nothing to do with the engine.
I had the new motor put in a while ago, just had 10,000km service done today. The problem I have, I wish I had the old engine back in it.

The old engine, even though it had it's "Triton lag", went pretty well. There is a steep hill I go up to my mate's property that I used to cruise on about 70-80km/h all the way. Even with camper it'd do 60 clicks. Now I have the new engine in, I can barely do 60 up the same hill, unloaded. How is this possible?
I used to be able to get around 11.5L/100km on the highway, even under 12L/100km with camper once. Now I can't get it below 13.5 on highway and around town it averages 15L/100km and is at worst about 18L/100. This is a brand new motor with nearly 15,000km on it. What gives?
I though perhaps it's because I put in a foam uni-filter instead of paper air filter [every trip up the mountains I'd have to replace it from being clogged], but I had that in before the new engine. Maybe the new tyres, which are only half an inch wider than before. What could it be?
Acceleration is almost non-existent, worse than before the new donk. From a standstill I plant the foot to the floor, move slowly, engine starts picking up to maybe about 2000rpm, then roughly 3-4 seconds later a little get up and go, then turbo kicks in and finally we get some power. But then the auto kicks into second, all motivation ceases and revs drop to below 2000. It's like the throttle got cut off. Same again, nothing for a couple of seconds until turbo, then finally some oomph. It is so frustrating, even without air-con going. Even if I'm doing 70km/h and just let my foot back off for a second, it feels like someone turned the motor off for a second and then I have to wait for about 2-3 seconds for the engine to respond again. It never did this with the old motor.

I though perhaps the injectors need a SQL, but after leaving the dealer and driving home today, it still sucked 16L/100km all the way home. Up a bit of an incline, I struggled to get her from 80 up to 100, over probably 500m to 1km, with the pedal to the floorboard.

I am now in the mindset that it needs an ECU remap. I cleaned the air filter today, just in case, but it made no diff. EGR is blocked, catch can activated, no inlet manifold grime. What else could it be?

Also, any day that the mercury hits 25 degrees or above, the clutch fan is screaming it's head off. Doing its job or just robbing me of power? So contemplating an electric fan to rid me of that awful noise.

I love my Triton, help me want to keep loving it!


gday mate , did you get this sorted? i too just had a new motor installed and its not got as much go as the old one
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby Longranger1 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:49 am

They take a while to loosen up but shouldn't be gutless.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby wildturkeycanoe on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:12 am

lufc wrote:gday mate , did you get this sorted? i too just had a new motor installed and its not got as much go as the old one

Not yet, been too busy. I have noticed heat is a big factor. 11 degree mornings it runs better but 25 and up feels like the handbrake has been left on. Went for a drive up a big hill, stopped to check the view. After starting, I could smell the hot engine, plus the guage started from 3/4 of the way up till the coolant cycled through. It was only about 30 degrees that day. I'd hate to think what would happen going up Clyde Mountain during summer. BTW, new radiator installed too last year.
]2011 MN Triton 2.5 diesel, canopy, roof basket, Aux. battery & 80W solar panel, reverse camera, UHF, SatNav and in-car DVD to keep kids quiet. Bullbar with Runva 9500lb winch, 2 inch EFS lift, custom vinyls and LED light bar.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby BillMcQuade on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:10 am

Sounds like a possible turbo issue.

Check that none of the lines to the VGT actuator are crimped.

Check the VGT actuator is working.

Also, it's not a hard job to check the timing marks, might be worthwhile.

Or, take it back to the installing dealer, and tell them that you are not happy, and why should you have to diagnose the faults! Also, email MMAL.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby senatorjohn on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Did a rebuild on my 2.5 litre diesel, new turbo, timing belts etc. Goes like a rocket. So why can't a dealer get it right when they have access to all the factory information and tooling ?
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby BillMcQuade on Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:06 am

senatorjohn wrote:Did a rebuild on my 2.5 litre diesel, new turbo, timing belts etc. Goes like a rocket. So why can't a dealer get it right when they have access to all the factory information and tooling ?


Because most (but not all) dealership mechanics are lack motivation, and aren't exactly the cream of the trade.

Dealerships also work to a budget, and couldn't care less about customer satisfaction.

To do an engine properly, there is a lot of detail work, which makes all the difference.

I've lost count of the blank stares I get from people when they talk about rebuilding engines, but don't understand how to set ring gaps, understand the importance of breaking sharp edges in a combustion chamber, or the measuring and confirming tolerances on "new" parts.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby wildturkeycanoe on Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:06 pm

I have finally got around to doing some diagnostics, after going for a drive this evening and returning a fuel consumption of 19L/100km taking my kids to Futsal. Yes I did have a lead foot seeing I got 5 out of 7 traffic lights go red, but that was only taking off, then I got stuck doing 80 clicks cruising in traffic.

Anyway, I got my Torque reader to log data from sensors whilst gunning it in our street. The graphs I first captured show that when the auto changes to second gear and the revs drop, the fuel rail pressure drops dramatically despite my foot remaining on the floor and according to logs I got later, the manifold throttle remaining wide open.
Click to view larger picture
Where the graph drops is where the gears changed, verified by the drop in revs on similar graph at same point in time.

I got some other data after figuring out how to save the log file, the red is what interests me as it is during the acceleration period.Click on the pic to expand to the other parameters.
Click to view larger picture

I can't find any similar data logs on the internet but I hope someone who knows about these things might be able to tell if the numbers are correct or if something is fishy.
The turbo looks to be working as it gets up into the 17-18PSI at least. It just seems like there is some reason the ECU decides to starve me of fuel when i need it the most, when at 100% throttle and plenty of air going through the system. Is that just typical of Mitsubishi software programmers perhaps?
]2011 MN Triton 2.5 diesel, canopy, roof basket, Aux. battery & 80W solar panel, reverse camera, UHF, SatNav and in-car DVD to keep kids quiet. Bullbar with Runva 9500lb winch, 2 inch EFS lift, custom vinyls and LED light bar.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby RHKTriton on Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:54 pm

Just reading through the thread again;

Your references to temperature would have me looking at the MAF sensor and possible damage to its wiring loom.

Radiator fan coming on hard is suggesting restricted airflow through radiator or issue with coolant circulation, is not transferring enough heat from engine to radiator. ( sticking thermostat, obstruction in plumbing, engine water passages, etc.)

Lack of power could be caused by contamination restricting fuel into high pressure pump, possibly rubbish got into the micro sieve where the fuel pipe connects.

My son's 2009 mn with auto, 285 tyres and canopy, with over 210k on the clock moves along quite nicely, even compared to my manual ml and the temp usually sits a whisker above half on the temp guage.

Ultimately, the dealer involved should sort it for you and a letter to Mitsi would be a must.
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Re: New engine worse than original.

Postby wildturkeycanoe on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:15 pm

I will check the fuel filter tomorrow but if it is blocked why am I using so much fuel?
On another note, I was using the calculated horsepower reading with the scanner and the old engine pulled between 100 and 140HP. The new engine can't get past 80. Nothing different except the engine. Def going to do as much fault finding as my understanding allows, then back to Mitsi if nothing apparent gets discovered.

EDIT - This afternoon it got to a stage where I planted the accelerator, little happened power wise for many seconds and it didn't even feel like the turbo was working anymore. The motor had no pull, didn't even try to shift down to 1st gear, simply sat there in second moaning away while the tacho climbed ever so slowly. I pulled the fuel filter out and apart from some tiny bits of contamination there was no blockage. That is to say I could easily blow through it so certainly not chock a block.
I took it for another drive with my reader plugged in. Was going to paste the results but all they show is revs increasing, turbo kicking in at around 2500rpm and fuel rail pressure increasing with engine revs. Nothing out of the ordinary, except it takes forever to get moving. So, I decided to get figures on that instead, but by now the evening temperature has dropped to a balmy 22 degrees, so I won't get the same "flat"readings as earlier today.
1st gear - 5 seconds to get to 40km/h
2nd gear - 5 seconds to get from 40 to 68km/h
3rd gear - 2 more seconds to get to 80.
All up, 12 seconds to get to 80km/h. The approximate horsepower at the wheels [determined by vehicle weight/acceleration] resulted in almost 100HP. Not sure how that compares with "new" engines, but a video online had their truck starting at 113HP before chip mod. Seeing there isn't much more I can check out and the figures don't show any significant issues, I guess I am just sick of the lag, used to the "power" and need to get it ECU-tuned. May need cat bypass too :), who knows? Depends how much I am allowed to spend.... :o
]2011 MN Triton 2.5 diesel, canopy, roof basket, Aux. battery & 80W solar panel, reverse camera, UHF, SatNav and in-car DVD to keep kids quiet. Bullbar with Runva 9500lb winch, 2 inch EFS lift, custom vinyls and LED light bar.
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